More U11 Kicking madness

David Martin

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Sorry just reading through the replies. Are we saying that the free kick can be taken quickly and therefore creating the situation of the team being penalised for being offside for not retreating.
 

AntonyGoodman


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Hi Dave,


I nearly wrote in response to an earlier post "Wait 'till they find out you can take it quickly", but I had second thoughts about introducing this to the thread when we were talking about some very important basic concepts in the rules early in the season and I didn't want to give you even more heart palpitations before Sunday!


So, yes, it is a free kick and therefore it can be taken quickly. Therefore, yes, the opposition can be penalised for not being 7m.


BUT, and this is a BIG BUT, if this area of the game is not introduced well by a ref who doesn't understand all of the ways to manage the game at these points, it has the capacity to really mess up the game.


Some examples of not managing/introducing this well include:


Not letting the kids know in advance that this is allowed
Not making the SH take the free kick properly (this one aplies to fk's generally)
Letting the SH take the free kick from the wrong place, i.e. not at the place of infringment (or in a line behind the place of infringment)
Letting the SH take the follow up "not 7" free kick from the wrong place or without the ref having made the mark for the follow up free kick
Penalising players for not being 7m back when they are not interfearing with play and/or retreating
Penalising players for not being 7m back many times in a row, when they probably don't even know what the problem is
Telling the kids "You can't take the second one quickly"
And I am sure other people have other examples here as well...


As far as I can see, you have a couple of options for your festival:


1. You can up front tell the other coaches that as this is early in the season and although you know quickly taken free kicks are possible, there are many other things that have been introduced to work on, and so you would like all refs not to allow them today. - wait for the moaning from the 'better' teams about how they have been pracicing this for weeks all through the summer.


2. You can up front tell the other coaches that quickly taken free kicks are allowed and set some expectation about how you would like them to manage that area of the game - the risk here is that some of them will know this already and know how to manage this, some of them will have only have just got their head around some of the more basic rules and will have no idea how this works.


3. You don't mention it in your brief at all, unless someone asks, the assumption being that we all know that they are allowed right? - be prepared for questions through the festival from teams who had no idea about this - potential risk, total mess and a lot of grumbling.


Sorry for the long post, hope it helped.


Thanks,


Antony
 
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Dan_A

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Antony's answer above is spot on. Also, remember that safety is all important. If there is free kick situation but there is a player down then make a big thing of saying "Time off, just want to check this player" and defintiely don't let the non-offending team take it quickly. Also, don't be afraid to use "Time off, blue team you need to make more effort to get back the 7m" as a way of actually slowing down the situation and preventing abuse of the quick tap by red (where they are just trying to milk ground).

You are in control, they only go quickly if you are happy for them to do it. If you are not happy then walk slowly to the mark...
 

David Martin

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Many Thanks Anthony / Dan_A

Our festival in Sunday is classed as a 'Development' festival for new/inexperienced players, so the whole idea of taking the free kick quickly will be a stretch too far (possibly more for the coaches ;) ), so I'll mention it, but say its not allowed, lets focus on taking the free kick properly.

I did think that the free kicks could be taken quickly, but no one has taken one quickly in the 3 festivals I've been too this season I was unsure, as I said before, the parents/coaches of one team were appalled that I let a child take the free kick and then run with it, so I think that's a step too far.

I think there may a case of getting a set of the areas u11 coaches together and go through the rules properly as no one seems to know whats going on :) which is very worrying given they are supposed to be coaching the kids.

What is the issue with "Telling the kids "You can't take the second one quickly"" ?
 

didds

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I'll sound really negative here, but you'll never get your area's U11 coaches all together to talk it through. If its a Sunday morning - they want to be coaching. Any other time is an issue because they are at work/away/have other committments/wife won't let them/sick/kid is sick/wife is sick/hamster is sick or they plain don;t care.

You're best option is to try to get everyone on an email chat, or facebook group set up for the purpose. And you still won't get replies or interaction form some, because they listen but never ever respond (so you've no idea if the messages shared have got through) and there will always be those that just refuse to engage - and those that whatever the group decides they will always do what they think, even if its clearly wrong. Ive sat in society meetings where one ref has stated he would always penalise X, despite everybody else in the room discussing the area and agreeing not to.

Good luck . All I will add is that as oong as itrs not dangerous and the players don't get totally upset over it, life is too short.

didds
 

David Martin

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Cheers didds,

I totally get where you're coming from, but I've always been the kind of person that will at least try and give people a chance and see what we can do.

I'm going to go round each of the teams that come on Sunday and collect email/phone details of the coaches/refs and I'm gonna try and set up an email group so we can talk about things. What comes of that, who knows, only time will tell.

I've made lots of friends by being a coach/ref and if I can get a few of us talking it can only make things better going forward.
 

AntonyGoodman


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What is the issue with "Telling the kids "You can't take the second one quickly"" ?

It is a law myth - there is no such law
 

Dan_A

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I think your best bet is to actually do a referees briefing before EVERY festival / joint training or whatever. Do this whilst teams are chasing latecomers and warming up. Invite coaches as well as referees. As you go through the season you'll find the same 3 or 4 things cropping up (your list in the first post is pretty standard - maybe go through that for your first referees briefing). Get the definitive answers to these straight in your head and be able to show the relevant para in the NROP or Laws. Keep a copy of the NROP as a pdf on your phone!!

At the beginning you may actually need 15mins of discussion, but hopefully this need goes away by the end of the season.
 

David Martin

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We do a briefing every festival all through the year, its just struck me this year that the kicking rules in the u11 have brought all sorts of crazy interpretations of the laws.

I've been charged with doing the refs briefing, so I thought it was best to get a definitive answer to the contentious issues that I'd experienced over the last 3 weeks.
 

Dan_A

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Makes complete sense. Having chapter and verse on those kicking things will definitely help clarify, especially at development level.

Good luck and please do bring back anything else that comes up, it's helpful for everyone who is doing minis and juniors to compare notes!
 

crossref


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I think your best bet is to actually do a referees briefing before EVERY festival / joint training or whatever. Do this whilst teams are chasing latecomers and warming up. Invite coaches as well as referees..

DEF invite the coaches as well as the referees!
If you have a programme (some festivals do) write the rules in the programme

at all costs avoid the temptation to create your own special rules. I used to hate when festival organisers did that.
 

Dan_A

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My youngest son's team once lost out in a trophy final at one of the big local festivals. Over the day we had scored more tries than anyone else, conceded fewer, and we hadn't lost a match. We had already beaten the other finalists in the pool phase earlier that day and had sportingly lent them players as they were short. The final finished 1-1.

Then the organizers showed us the rules:-
""In the event of a tie in the final, the trophy will be awarded to the team that has traveled the furthest".

This wasn't us and the oppo team were not interested in sharing as the rules were on their side!!
 

Phil E


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My youngest son's team once lost out in a trophy final at one of the big local festivals. Over the day we had scored more tries than anyone else, conceded fewer, and we hadn't lost a match. We had already beaten the other finalists in the pool phase earlier that day and had sportingly lent them players as they were short. The final finished 1-1.

Then the organizers showed us the rules:-
""In the event of a tie in the final, the trophy will be awarded to the team that has traveled the furthest".

This wasn't us and the oppo team were not interested in sharing as the rules were on their side!!


It's not all about winning! :wink:
 

Dan_A

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Completely unsurprisingly this caused more upset amongst the parents than the players. The players knew that they were the moral victors, got their medals and hamburgers and went home happy. Which is what it's all about. (p.s. I'm still fuming however.....) :hap:
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Phil E


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Completely unsurprisingly this caused more upset amongst the parents than the players. The players knew that they were the moral victors, got their medals and hamburgers and went home happy. Which is what it's all about. (p.s. I'm still fuming however.....) :hap:
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Rugby's the winner :wink:
 

crossref


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My youngest son's team once lost out in a trophy final at one of the big local festivals. Over the day we had scored more tries than anyone else, conceded fewer, and we hadn't lost a match. We had already beaten the other finalists in the pool phase earlier that day and had sportingly lent them players as they were short. The final finished 1-1.

Then the organizers showed us the rules:-
""In the event of a tie in the final, the trophy will be awarded to the team that has traveled the furthest".

This wasn't us and the oppo team were not interested in sharing as the rules were on their side!!


My son's team once went to the County finals, it was U11 or something like that.

We lost our first pool game, but our final pool game was against club-x, the favourites, who were actually the hosting club on the day.

The boys played their hearts out and managed to beat them! :) The pool finished with us and club-x in a tie, both losing the one game.

Turned out we were equal on tries scored as well, which was what the programme said came next.

So, the coaches ran off to the organisers tent, to find out the full rules.

Guess who qualified for the knock out rounds? Club X did!

I can't remember the precise details, it was something to do with performance in previous qualifying rounds earlier in the season

It was very hard to explain to the boys why we packed out tent for home, while club-x whom we had just beaten, warmed up for the semi-final :-(
 
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didds

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the more stories I read and hear like this, the more I feel justified in considering festivals the spawn of satan. I think I went to four in total.

didds
 

AntonyGoodman


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didds

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In my experience it is completely in the power of the festival organisers to make it great, or make it a total mess. I have been to many of both types.

Undoubtedly Anthony.

But how many does one attend before one finds a "good one" ? I attended four festivals with my two sons and age groups I coached. Every single one of them seemsed to consist of everybody arriving before 9am to be registered, with eventually starting a game at around 10.30 am, or even gone 11am!. Three matches would then be strung out between then and about 1.30pm with huge gaps between them. Then if a team was "lucky" (!!!!!!) It got to play a semi final at about 2.30pm after "a lunch break" (FFS!) and a maybe final at 3.30pm. That is at best 5 matches in something like 7 hours of attendance - at younger age groups these matches may be less than 20 minutes long of course.

that's pants. Totally and utterly pants. Frankly players are better off meeting at 10:15, and playing three games in a three way meeting . That's as much rugby as the pool stages., no ridiculous hanging around and leaves the rest of the day for everybody to have another life, and sufficient time toi drink, and have a coaching session as well.

And don't even start me in the (some) coach-win-at-all attitudes, of the fringe players getting 5 minutes play in those 7 hours, the £5-a-car entry fee when there is no option, placed on a "pitch" several miles from a toilet, shelter from the elements, which seems to be on a 1 in 3 slope/rubbish tip/ploughed field. Nor the "only ten players permitted per squad" leaving the undoubtedly weakest ten players with nothing to do that weekend (oh what an opportunity to provide some back fill for them!) because oh-what-a-surprise EVERY coach HAS to attend the festival and of course that means THEIR child ALWAYS plays at EVERY festival.

Funny how when I used to raise these concerns constantly with my own club, parents, coaches (as CCC!), RDOs and county coach committees etc everyone would just shuffle their feet and look the other way. it was a real elephant in the room - everybody acknowledged these issues privately but nobody ever addressed them. I would offer to run sessions myself for players left behind - to find of course then a mixture of coaches never actually bothering to tell those non selected players and parents that the session was available, to potential trainees not being available in the end because their sibling was attending the festival in another AG and of course the whole family had to attend for whatever bizarre reason.

They were shit.

didds
 
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