Narrow studs

TheBFG


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I've also seen these and make a point of telling players they don't comply, I tell them they need changing. At some point I will change that to, you're not playing with those studs in your boots change them!

I deliberately worded my original post in the way I did.

In the first instance I put the monkey on their back "make a point of telling players they don't comply, I tell them they need changing" i.e. I've told them they need changing, their responsibility and that of their captain too as he's in ear shot!

Where as at some point i.e. if I see the same player again, (and with the way our appts go at my level that'll be within 4-6 weeks) I will insist he changes them and i'll want to see that it's done!
 

crossref


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If you are not going to insist that dangerous studs be changed, then I think you'd be best off not mentioning them, so that you can claim you never noticed them .. they must have been changed after the inspection or something.

Once you have stated that you think they are dangerous you absolutely can't back down and let him play in them.
 

crossref


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I think I will raise with the chairman for discussion.

the trouble is hypothetical discussion don't necessaryily help. You know the answeer you will get from the question.

Mr Chairman - if I see studs that I consider dangerous, should I refuse to let them on the pitch? - Yes.
Mr Chairman - if I see football studs, are they OK? Answer - not sure what you mean by football studs. Are they dangerous?

You can go round in circle here.

I am thinking of taking a boot to our next meeting, with eight different, carefully selected studs in, and asking those present which studs are OK and which arent. With some actual examples right in front of us (rahter than hypotheticals) maybe we'd get a useful discussion

I just need to go collect some studs!
 

Decorily

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I deliberately worded my original post in the way I did.

In the first instance I put the monkey on their back "make a point of telling players they don't comply, I tell them they need changing" i.e. I've told them they need changing, their responsibility and that of their captain too as he's in ear shot!

Where as at some point i.e. if I see the same player again, (and with the way our appts go at my level that'll be within 4-6 weeks) I will insist he changes them and i'll want to see that it's done!

How can you possibly try to justify what you are suggesting here.....either you are satisfied that the studs are legal/safe or they are not.
They are legal/safe today but they won't be next time I see you wearing them is rubbish. If you are the referee make the call now!
 

TheBFG


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I did! "those studs are illegal, they need changing"

Which bit of that is not clear?

They're grown ups, I assume they can follow a simple instruction, (if THEY chose not to do it that's their problem) where as next time I see them, they obviously couldn't follow that instruction so they'll be treated like my u16's side where I tell them to change them and then watch them do it before the play!
 

crossref


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I did! "those studs are illegal, they need changing"

Which bit of that is not clear?

They're grown ups, I assume they can follow a simple instruction, (if THEY chose not to do it that's their problem) where as next time I see them, they obviously couldn't follow that instruction so they'll be treated like my u16's side where I tell them to change them and then watch them do it before the play!

but then you don't re-inspect? If they are still wearing the same boots at the kick off and you 'don't notice', haven't you undermined your own authority a bit.
 

Decorily

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Maybe its just me...but actually none of it is clear.

You say "if they chose not to do it that's their problem". Do you allow them to change or not change and carry on regardless?

EDIT. Crossref beat me to it!
 

TheBFG


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but then you don't re-inspect?

Nope, I've told the player in the presence of his captain, if THEY choose to ignore me then they can deal with the potential fall out.

Due to this thread I've just sent an email to the society president suggesting that we should send an email out to all refs saying these studs are illegal and as a society we should be telling players to change them. Hopefully we then won't get the "well the ref didn't have a problem with them last week!"
 

crossref


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Nope, I've told the player in the presence of his captain, if THEY choose to ignore me then they can deal with the potential fall out.

so you've told him to change his boots and twenty minutes later he comes on with the same boots, and you just pretend not to notice?

I think
1 - you've undermined your own authority
2 - you've exposed yourself to risk as you have declared the boots dangerous and let him play in them.

from a personal point of view you'd be better off pretending not to notice them at inspection time!
 
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TheBFG


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we're not going to agree on this one :wink:

Ive told him, if he chooses not to change them it's his look out! I've mitigated my risk by putting the monkey on his and his captains back :shrug:

hopefully due to the email I've sent to SRRS this problem will be wiped out.

I have come across these studs, 3-4 times this year, on at least 2 of those occasions the player has come to me to show he's changed them :clap: as for the others :shrug: But now I've taken the stance of making it an issue in writing I guess i'll have to put my money where my mouth is.
 

Decorily

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Ive told him, if he chooses not to change them it's his look out! I've mitigated my risk by putting the monkey on his and his captains back :shrug:

So you admit to turning a blind eye to a red card offense and thinking that is acceptable. WOW!!!
 

Browner

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the trouble is hypothetical discussion don't necessaryily help. You know the answeer you will get from the question.

Mr Chairman - if I see studs that I consider dangerous, should I refuse to let them on the pitch? - Yes.
Mr Chairman - if I see football studs, are they OK? Answer - not sure what you mean by football studs. Are they dangerous?

You can go round in circle here.

I am thinking of taking a boot to our next meeting, with eight different, carefully selected studs in, and asking those present which studs are OK and which arent. With some actual examples right in front of us (rahter than hypotheticals) maybe we'd get a useful discussion

I just need to go collect some studs!

Dont forget to take some triangular, ribbed, or other 'blade' variations (such as those that caused that horrific injury) and ask everyone whether any of those examples would also pass the 'optional' :wtf: glancing & raking tests A&B listed in Regulation 12 Appendix 2.

It's even arguable that even a spring loaded 70mm glance test, doesn't accurately replicate cleat/stud propensity to injure in a match scenario.

:shrug:

If anyone can get their society/CB or Union to give a written position beyond the standard liability GOoJFC of "its up to the referee to decide" ( knowing that he isnt equipped to accurately assess) then please share it.
We're :deadhorse:eek:n this IMO, 'referees are absorbing the risk, everyone will run for cover and leave the 'referee lamb' to his own fate.

As a reminder, here is the stud dimensions deemed to be the benchmark standard, from which all 'propensity to injure comparisons' need to be made.

1415270643_9580.jpg


I stumbled across this illustration on the WWW , posted by a UK rugby club, who themselves deal with this subject in this way on their website
http://www.newarkrugby.com/news/correct-stud-sizes-1324925.html
 
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Accylad


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I have in effect been turning something of a blind eye. I note that they are illegal, I say that I could insist that the player changes the studs and not play if he can't, that a future ref might do that but that for today I won't insist. Had I not done that last Saturday 2 players on one team and 3 on the other would not have played.

Generally speaking with a stud issue, say a missing one at the rear, I ask the player to come and see me before the teams run out to confirm that it is replaced.

I spoke to our Chairman today. He was, as I expected, supportive. The issue will be raised at Committtee and i suggested it might be an issue for the Society or CB to communicate to clubs which he agreed might be sensible.
 

Pinky


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This is a difficult area and WR and their regs don't help. Reg 12 gives as shown above a standard stud, but it is clear that other designs are OK as long as they are no more likely to cause injury. Adidas challenged the IRB about Predator "blades" and the were allowed. I believe that Adidas claim all their current football boots are OK for rugby. Certainly they seem to do rugby versions of most high end boots. Reg 12 suggests it is for manufacturers to confirm their boots are suitable, but most don't. So where are we with Nike new narrow studs? Frankly I don't know and without testing equipment I would not be able to judge. Are they more dangerous? I really don't know. I presume that Nike would say they were safe as although rugby type contact is more frequent, it is reasonably foreseeable to happen in Wendy ball. So although I don't like them, I concentrate on sharp edges and worn or missing studs. Gilbert and Canterbury both make boots with studs made of two or more materials which are not like the standard studs, but which I presume have been designed to be safe for rugby.

Why do WR regs and law not help? Well they removed the no single stud at the toe from law, but left Reg 12 saying boots must not be designed to have a single stud at the toe whilst permitting the Adidas FF 80. IMHO they should have changed Reg 12 and only allowed in law boots that were designed to have one stud at the toe.

All this is why I concentrate on worn and/or missing studs that have the chance of being more dangerous than unworn and complete sole/stud combinations.
 

TheBFG


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I have in effect been turning something of a blind eye. I note that they are illegal, I say that I could insist that the player changes the studs and not play if he can't, that a future ref might do that but that for today I won't insist. Had I not done that last Saturday 2 players on one team and 3 on the other would not have played.

Generally speaking with a stud issue, say a missing one at the rear, I ask the player to come and see me before the teams run out to confirm that it is replaced.

I spoke to our Chairman today. He was, as I expected, supportive. The issue will be raised at Committtee and i suggested it might be an issue for the Society or CB to communicate to clubs which he agreed might be sensible.

I've done the same, but to date not had a response, it makes sense that we both do this as obviously we have teams that cross over at certain levels in our areas :wink:
 

Shelflife


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Had a player with those narrow studs a few weeks a go, to me they looked extremely dangerous, Funnily enough they had the number 10 on them implying to me at least that they were the required 10mm when they clearly werent.

Luckily for him he had a spare pair of boots.
 

Andyp

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We wouldn't think twice about stopping a player having a go at prop if they weren't suitably trained because it is dangerous, so why would we consider allowing players to use studs that are considered dangerous. Both could result in serious injury.

Players and coaches being inconvenienced because players are not properly dressed, isn't a good enough reason to ignore safety.
 
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