[Scrum] New scrum law. Use it. 5 seconds and early unbind by flankers ?

[CrouchTPEngage]

Just about to ref my first game this season with the new law amendments. My question concerns the new application of the scrum law. At a scrum, the ball is at the no.8 feet and then scrum collapses. My understanding is that, now, i must tell 'use it' to the 9 and allow 5 secs for the ball to be used. It strikes me that the opposition flankers will be unbinding early - either to anticipate the end of the 5 secs or merely to avoid pushing their collapsed front row's noses even harder into the grass.
Should we expect flankers to maitain their bind after such a collapse ?
Do I penalise this behaviour ?

Thoughts ?

 

[Pegleg]

I think you are confusing two laws:

20.10 ENDING THE SCRUM

(d) When a team has the ball at the number 8’s feet , and is trying to move forward but is not
succeeding in doing so , the referee will call “use-it” once the ball has been at the number 8’s
feet for a reasonable amount of time (3-5 seconds). The team must then use the ball
immediately.


And

The removal of the clause in the ADVANTAGE law which prohibited the playing of advantage after a collapsed scrum.

For me if a scrum collapses I want the push t ostop and the ball to be away for quicker than the 3-5 seconds that 20.10 (d) refers to.

If the flankers have had time to unbind and the ball is not away then there's probably no advantage.

 

[The Fat]

As Pegleg says, "I think you are confusing two Laws". The use it call is for when the ball is at the No.8's feet and the scrum is not moving forward.

Don't forget that safety is paramount.
20.3(h) Scrum collapse. If a scrum collapses, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

 

[ChrisR]

As Pegleg says, "I think you are confusing two Laws". The use it call is for when the ball is at the No.8's feet and the scrum is not moving forward.

Don't forget that safety is paramount.
20.3(h) Scrum collapse. If a scrum collapses, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

Yes and no. An amendment to Advantage law removed "8.3(d) Collapsed scrum. Advantage must not be applied when a scrum collapses. The refereemust blow the whistle immediately." to allow referees to play advantage so that scrums could be completed. The Law Makers forgot(?) to remove or modify 20.3(h).

I passed this conflict on to Laws@rfu.com and received this reply:

Hi Chris
The RFU has written to world rugby stating it is a serious omission in law 8 to leave out collapsed scrum when advantage should not be played. Northern Hemisphere Referee Societies have been instructed not to make reference to the 2016 Law book until the commencement of next season. There are many 'discrepancies' where clarification is sought.
Regards
Dave Broadwell

Therefore with 20.3(h) still on the books and the RFU challenging the removal of 8.3(d) I'd say 20.3 wins.

 

[Pegleg]

Even though the RFU senior refs have regularly played o0n / played advantage after collapsed scrums at the higher levels for years.

Hypocricy!

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

Thanks Folks.
Armed with this new information and given the levels I ref at I will err on the side of safety and blow quick to prevent injury at scrum collapse time. I was confused because elite matches appear to be allowed to continue with a collapsed scrum when the ball has reached the 8 s feet.

 

[Pegleg]

The elite guys have been doing it for years. It is clearly being sanctioned as it is universal at the elite level. Spreaders even played advantage from a collapsed scrum at Cardiff during an international.

Here it was sanctioned at Welsh premiership and above that if the ball is available then you can play on or play advantage despite provision of the (PRE 2016) law 20 and law 8.

The changes to law 8 really on reflect current elite practice.

For me I'm with CrouchTPEngage. Safety comes first.

 

[Wert Twacky]

I can assure you the Elite refs have not been instructed to play advantage at collapsed scrums. If a scrum collapses at showbiz level and the ball is available/at the back and can be played away, it often is. I will be amazed if you see an Elite referee call advantage at a collapsed scrum nowadays. What Spreaders may have done X-number of years ago is irrelevant.

At our/community level, a collapsed scrum = whistle to stop the game and reset.... safety, safety, safety.

 

[Taff]

This law change was the only one that raised an eyebrow when I read it, so I was quite pleased to receive an e-mail saying that the Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) have an Union specific variation. The business owner part of me can't help wondering whether this variation was as a result of pressure from the WRUs insurance company.

Either way, the e-mail went on to say

Our stance has not changed in relation to collapsed scrums.

1 Law 20.3.h must be applied at all levels. If a scrum collapses the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.
2 Law 20.3.I if a player in a scrum is lifted in the air or is forced upwards out of the scrum the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

We do not play any advantage from either of the above immaterial of where the ball is (i.e. 8s feet). The scrum is either reset or player/s are sanctioned. PLAYER SAFETY/ WELFARE IS OUR NUMBER ONE PRIOIRITY

I assume that when touring teams from other countries come here, they will be told about the variation.

 

[Pegleg]

I can assure you the Elite refs have not been instructed to play advantage at collapsed scrums. If a scrum collapses at showbiz level and the ball is available/at the back and can be played away, it often is. I will be amazed if you see an Elite referee call advantage at a collapsed scrum nowadays. What Spreaders may have done X-number of years ago is irrelevant.

At our/community level, a collapsed scrum = whistle to stop the game and reset.... safety, safety, safety.

Well in Wales and elsewhere they do play on /advantage at collapsed scrums, and have been doing so for years, at elite level. The point about spreaders is that nothing realy changes. THe IRB / WR can make all the directives it wants to. The reality, on the pitch is often very different.

The evidence is on the TV every week!