[Golden Oldies] Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

[L'irlandais]

Dublin today.

 

[tewdric]

Thanks for the link - very highly recommended!

 

[Phil E]

Some great topics and insight in that interview. Thanks for posting it.

A few years ago I had the pleasure of refereeing at the Bingham Cup and I can honestly say it was the most enjoyable competition I have ever been involved in...and one of the biggest.

Rugby's inclusiveness (in all areas) is one of its great strengths.

http://igrugby.org/binghamcup.htm

 

[crossref]

Does he mention allowing people to play in headscarves ?

 

[L'irlandais]

Shouldn’t really comment on this discussion if you haven’t taken the time to watch the 17minutes clip.

I don’t have figures for other Unions, but here are some IRFu stats.
Of 194,347 registered players in Ireland, last season only 4,339 were women. Only 1, as far as I am aware requested wearing a headscarf. Details here. No one had any problem with her wearing a WR approved headscarf. So religious intolerance isn’t a thing in Irish rugby, for historic reasons.

So perhaps instead of angels on pinheads scenarios, we might stick to real issues. The need for tolerance in Rugby and how best to weed out the tiny minority who taunt people like Simon Zebo when he plays in Ireland. Racial and LGBT concerns were the focus of his chat.

 

[Zebra1922]

I think it’s a real shame that there is a need for LGBT clubs due to a lack of inclusion (or exclusi I) of the LTBT community from rugby clubs. Nigel is right, it is a minority that cause trouble and make LGBT people feel unwelcome, but t they need to be weeded out. By all means have LGBT clubs if you want to play with your LGBT friends, but we shouldn’t have them as LGBT players are discouraged from being members of rugby clubs, which is unfortunately still the case in 2019.

 

[crossref]

Rugby is a sport where there is a tradition of clubs formed around a common identity outside of rugby

Commonly nationality (London Irish , Scottish etc)
Or work (law society, civil service, Police)
Or school or college (old Pauline's etc)
And no doubt there are other examples

So an LGBT oriented club is right bang in this rugby tradition.

Another part of the tradition is not being stupid about about .. and all clubs should be inclusive now.

 

[L'irlandais]

Nigel’s point exactly, that minorities should feel welcome in any club they choose. LGBT clubs are a regular thing in larger cities here in France. And then maybe only at a particular University. But what if you are underage, or live in the sticks, surely one should feel free to join the local Rugby club.

Unfortunately the head scarf is probably a poor example of such fraternity.
Immigration in France is quite different to that in the UK; although there are some parallels, such as former colonies being a source of immigrants. Here in France, country proud of its secular values, it isn’t possible to gather statistics about how many FFR members are muslim. The apparent religious tolerance, is in reality a thin veneer covering a multitude of woes.

A recent example: Decathlon cancels *sports hijab sale in France

*Called “hijab de running} over here. By not allowing girls to wear one, there is the possibility they not be allowed take part in sport by their parents. Suggesting the parents are intolerant, is missing the crux of the matter; the resulting polarization of communities. Diversity should be seen as a strength.

Funny it should be an issue for French citizens of Middel Eastern or Northe African origin. Photos of the recent womens sevens, show none of the Lebanese women’s team wore haed scarves. Only one of the Jordanian squad did. Not one of the Syrian team had one on. If Qutar have a purple coloured kit, then thay don’t appear to use head scarves either. Worth a browse, on the subject of tolerance in rugby at this very moment.

Intolerance is perhaps a growing problem in occidental countries only. Fear of those who are different being the likely cause.

 

[Jz558]

Crossref raises a good point, common identity has historically been a very significant driver in the formation of many teams and clubs. Whilst not being blind to prejudice it is worth noting that that the existence of LGBT teams may not necessarily indicate intolerance in the wider game rather it may allow individuals to feel confident enough to participate in a sport they may otherwise be apprehensive about. Whilst there are always exceptions I have always felt that overall rugby was pretty inclusive and largely avoids ill-informed prejudice. However if players feel more confident in LGBT teams then that great but I’m confident that they would find the same camaraderie in other Clubs also

 

[crossref]

It also should work both ways. You don't have to be Welsh to join London Welsh. I imagine you don't have to be LBGT to join your local club .. if that is the tradition of your local club

 

[Zebra1922]

Crossref raises a good point, common identity has historically been a very significant driver in the formation of many teams and clubs. Whilst not being blind to prejudice it is worth noting that that the existence of LGBT teams may not necessarily indicate intolerance in the wider game rather it may allow individuals to feel confident enough to participate in a sport they may otherwise be apprehensive about. Whilst there are always exceptions I have always felt that overall rugby was pretty inclusive and largely avoids ill-informed prejudice. However if players feel more confident in LGBT teams then that great but I’m confident that they would find the same camaraderie in other Clubs also

I understand the point about comm I identify and it is a great or justification for having LGBT clubs. But too your point about rugby being inclusive. How many LGBT players are you aware of in your club or clubs near to you? How many LGBT referees are you aware of in your society?

 

[crossref]

this thread has proved to quite topical now ... wonder what's going to happen with Billy V ... and all the England players who support him

 

[Decorily]

How many LGBT players are you aware of in your club or clubs near to you? How many LGBT referees are you aware of in your society?

There are many male and female LGBTetc players in my local Club and they are accepted and involved the same as anybody else.
There are also a number of LGBTetc referees in my association and they are accepted and involved the same as everyone else.

 

[crossref]

Any fundamentalist Christians ?

 

[Decorily]

Any fundamentalist Christians ?

There could be.....what's your point?

 

[L'irlandais]

Alan Quinlan isn’t the greatest rugby commentator, but this is a fairly balanced response to Israel Folau’s tweet.
(Or Instagram or whatever platform it was.)

Interesting that Folau had been a poster boy for the LGBT community in August 2014, why the sudden U-turn?

If Folau is so into the Bible, isn’t he willfully over looking some verses? Like;
[LAWS]Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. (Matthew 7:1-2)[/LAWS]We are all sinners, pretty sure there are some failings Mr Folau would prefer never become public knowledge.

...hell awaits drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolators,

That about covers the entire membership of my local rugby club. I think he is genuinely not for this code. Try Aussie rules again, Israel.

 

[L'irlandais]

this thread has proved to quite topical now ... wonder what's going to happen with Billy V ... and all the England players who support him

Wife beating is a major problem on the island of Tonga. Perhaps Folau didn’t include it in his list of sins, because he thinks it’s okay to do that sort of thing. Perhaps Mr. B. Vunipola would do well to concentrate on his day job and spend a little less time liking dubious online comments.

 

[crossref]

There could be.....what's your point?

It was the fundamentalist Christian who got booed on Saturday (Billy V at Bristol)... Because of his attitude to LBGT people ..


Just that it's a complex problem

 

[crossref]

There are many male and female LGBTetc players in my local Club and they are accepted and involved the same as anybody else.
.

which is as it should be -- but I am not sure this inclusion is echoed at top levels in England

Of course the goodwill received by both is hugely positive but let’s not kid ourselves that rugby does not have a problem when there is not a single Premiership and/or England player who is openly gay.

From

But on the other hand there seem to be quite a number supporting Billy V ..

Compounding the RFU’s headache, the No 8’s post was liked by fellow England internationals Manu Tuilagi, Nathan Hughes, Nick Isiekwe and Courtney Lawes, who replied with his own message defending Vunipola’s decision to offer his opinion. It remains to be seen whether they and other Premiership players, including his childhood friend and Wales No 8 Taulupe Faletau, who also “liked” the post, will face further action.

Of course this is a society-wide tension. Modern secular values prize inclusion. Inclusion of LGBT and inclusion of religion. But religious values are sometime NOT inclusive... hence the tension. But who would have thought this society-wide collision of values would all play out on a rugby pitch , of all places.

 

[Flish]

For some reason, when in the public eye / a role model, the most difficult thing to do seems to be ‘say nothing’. Everyone should be free to believe in whatever they like, and to an extent they can speak about it to, but the freedom to speak bit isn’t freedom from consequences - and the more in the public eye you are the higher the consequence - do these players not understand that? Or have they gone soccer and believe they’re above it all?

Disappointing and frustrating :-(