NO on forward pasess

OB..


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A player is running toward his own goal line.
Velocity -10

As he crosses the 22m line he passes the ball along the 22m line to a team mate.

Forward velocity of the ball =0

It's not a forward pass , even though he has changed the velocity of the ball from -10 to zero
In order to pass the ball along the line he has to cancel out his -10 velocity by applying +10. Going from -10 to 0 is a decrease in backward speed ie an increase in forward speed.

The player has not passed backwards relative to himself, but forwards. He will end up well behind the ball.

If he were an opponent throwing exactly the same pass, it would clearly not be forward. Forward for one team is backward for the other.

Travelling along the line is, of course, not a valid test for a forward pass.

You appear to be claiming that the criteria for a forward pass when running towards your own line are different. Perhaps you would care to outline the relevant criteria you would use?
 

crossref


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Why do you think this? Even after the (paraphrased) definition was provided to you? Do you accept that a pass that goes towards your opponents DBL can be not thrown forward?

Concentrate on this, as people are not reading carefully what I say


A pass that travels towards your opponents DBL may or may not be forward . As we all know

My claim is

A pass that travels toward YOUR OWN DBL is never forward
If you don't think that is right give a counter example
 
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DocY


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If you don't think that is right give a counter example

The BC is running back towards his own DBL at 10 m/s, throws the ball backwards (relative to himself, i.e. towards his opponents DBL) at 5 m/s (also relative to himself).

The ball travels (relative to the pitch) towards his own DBL at 5 m/s and I think that would be a forward pass.
 

crossref


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I think
1 you see that frequently
2 its never called as forward
3 if anyone ever called it forward people would think it crazy
 

DocY


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Oh how about:

Winger and fullback both running back to field a kick, running at the same speed and the winger is 5m closer to his own DBL than the fullback.
With both players still running at the same speed, the winger picks up the ball and passes it to the fullback, 5m closer to their opponents DBL.
Would you really not give a forward pass then?
 

thepercy


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A player is running toward his own goal line.
Velocity -10

As he crosses the 22m line he passes the ball along the 22m line to a team mate.

Forward velocity of the ball =0

It's not a forward pass , even though he has changed the velocity of the ball from -10 to zero

In a vacuum the ball will still have a the same backward velocity, in the real world with wind resistance it is slightly less. A flat pass does not take away any of the balls backward momentum
 

crossref


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In a vacuum the ball will still have a the same backward velocity, in the real world with wind resistance it is slightly less. A flat pass does not take away any of the balls backward momentum

A pass along the 22m line means all the backward velocity has been removed

Clearly the velocity explanation is terrible , as no one understands it !
 

Wedgie


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Oh, FFS!

Can the unladen African swallow have negative velocity compared to the European?
 

OB..


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I think
1 you see that frequently
2 its never called as forward
3 if anyone ever called it forward people would think it crazy
I have never seen a player throw the ball back over his shoulder when running towards his own DBL.

Three scenarios - X is running towards his own DBL with the ball:
1. X passes to Y who is several metres nearer the DBL.
2. X passes sideways exactly compensating for his own backward speed.
3. X throws the ball back over his shoulder.

You appear to be claiming that all three are valid passes ie it does not matter how he passes as long as he is running towards his own DBL. That is tantamount to saying that it is impossible for him to throw a forward pass, which does not make sense.

Please explain what you would accept as a throw forward from player X.
 

crossref


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I have never seen a player throw the ball back over his shoulder when running towards his own DBL.

whoever mentioned that?
using velocity vectors is NOT a good way to define a forward pass as no one understands it.

Scenario
- a player is running toward his own goal line, forward velocity -10
- as he crosses the 22m line he passes the ball along the 22m line to a team mate.
- forward velocity of the ball = 0 (it's travelling along the 22m line)
- this is NOT a forward pass
- even though he changed the forward velocity of the ball from -10 to 0

OB.. please concentrate on the scenario as written
 

OB..


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whoever mentioned that?
using velocity vectors is NOT a good way to define a forward pass as no one understands it.

Scenario
- a player is running toward his own goal line, forward velocity -10
- as he crosses the 22m line he passes the ball along the 22m line to a team mate.
- forward velocity of the ball = 0 (it's travelling along the 22m line)
- this is NOT a forward pass
- even though he changed the forward velocity of the ball from -10 to 0

OB.. please concentrate on the scenario as written
The point is that he INCREASED the forward speed from -10 to 0. That is a forward pass. We do not measure a pass by its speed over the ground, but by its direction relative to the passer.

I gave you three examples which covered three different directions relative to the passer - forwards, sideways, and backwards. They cannot all three be valid passes.

The requirement is that the ball should not be moving forward relative to the passer when it leaves the passer's hands. That is exactly equivalent to my statement that the passer must not increase the forward speed of the ball, but the latter is easier to measure if you have the equipment.
 

dave_clark


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i understand what crossref is saying, but i'm almost scared to say that i agree with him...

i reckon it's likely to come up in the games tomorrow. i'll try to remember to take a note of the time it does.
 

crossref


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The point is that he INCREASED the forward speed from -10 to 0. That is a forward pass.
t.

Yes he did
But no it isn't
This happens all the time . No one ever gives a forward pass when the ball is travelling toward the passers own DBL (or in this case perfectly sideways)

Your velocity definition doesn't give the right result .
 
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DocY


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- as he crosses the 22m line he passes the ball along the 22m line to a team mate.

This would necessitate him throwing the ball forward.

Were it a short pass you might get away with it, but the ball is always going to travel forward relative to the thrower.
 

crossref


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This would necessitate him throwing the ball forward.

Were it a short pass you might get away with it, but the ball is always going to travel forward relative to the thrower.
Indeed but it's not uncommon and no one ever calls itna forward pass, when it doesn't go forwards
 

OB..


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Indeed but it's not uncommon and no one ever calls itna forward pass, when it doesn't go forwards
"Forwards" is judged relative to the player, not the ground. In this case you appear to be judging it relative to the ground. Is that your criterion?
 

Treadmore

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"Forwards" is judged relative to the player, not the ground. In this case you appear to be judging it relative to the ground. Is that your criterion?
not sure why you're struggling with this OB, crossref has just reversed the usual momentum situation (and it is a foward pass but the ball travels towards the passer's DBL (or flat))

what he's interested in is whether you would call it as such during a game?
 

OB..


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not sure why you're struggling with this OB, crossref has just reversed the usual momentum situation (and it is a foward pass but the ball travels towards the passer's DBL (or flat))

what he's interested in is whether you would call it as such during a game?
I am trying to get crossref to accept that the passes are forward even if many refs would (mistakenly) not blow for them. He is ducking.

His attempt to "prove" my statement wrong fails.
 
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