[Maul] Non Competing at a Maul

[Willehj]

At a line out the team in position catches the ball and sets up for a maul with the ball being moved back to the hind most player in the 'maul'.

However the opposing team do not engage in the maul and do not bind in.

What is the consequence from a law point of view?

1.Is the ball available to be contested by the opposing team as a maul has not been created and therefore there is no offside line and we are on open play

2. Are the players in front of the ball obstructing the opposition competing so a penalty should be awarded.

3. Are the players in front of the ball offside so a penalty should be awarded.

Thanks

 

[crossref]

We just had a thread on this...

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?21479-Question-on-driving-maul-at-a-lineout&highlight=email

 

[Phil E]

The sequence of events goes something like this (Wolrd Rugby & RFU guidelines)....

Did the defending team step backwards, therefore leaving the lineout early? If so penalise them.

If the stepped sideways to avoid engaging (staying in the lineout), then transfer your attention to the attacking team.

Is the ball at the front of the maul like thing? If so play on, no obstruction, they can trundle down the field. (a call of ball at the front no obstruction will help the defenders understand whats happening and keep the game going).

If they moved it to the back and the defenders didn't engage, call "Use It", if they fail to use it, then its a scrum for accidental offside. (you may decide to upgrade this to a penalty if they keep doing it and don't learn, but to start with it should be a scrum).

The defenders cannot come round and tackle the ball carrier because the ball hasn't left the lineout, so they would be offside.

Hope that helps. I will now try and find the link to the guidance.

 

[Decorily]

The defenders cannot come round and tackle the ball carrier because the ball hasn't left the lineout, so they would be offside.
.

I'd be wary of advising that it's certain that the ball hasn't left the lineout...in some cases it may indeed have left.

 

[Dickie E]

I'd be wary of advising that it's certain that the ball hasn't left the lineout...in some cases it may indeed have left.

in which case defenders can come around and effectively prevent the 'use it' and/or tackle the ball carrier?

 

[Decorily]

in which case defenders can come around and effectively prevent the 'use it' and/or tackle the ball carrier?

Indeed.

 

[thepercy]

If they moved it to the back and the defenders didn't engage, call "Use It", if they fail to use it, then its a scrum for accidental offside. (you may decide to upgrade this to a penalty if they keep doing it and don't learn, but to start with it should be a scrum).

What if they move the ball to the back and then the defense engages? Scrum for accidental offside or PK for obstruction?

 

[crossref]

What if they move the ball to the back and then the defense engages? Scrum for accidental offside or PK for obstruction?

did you take your arm down signalling lineout over?

 

[Decorily]

did you take your arm down signalling lineout over?

How is that relevant?

 

[crossref]

How is that relevant?

If the lineout is over they can come round and get the ball.
If the lineout is not over they can't leave it

It's customary for the ref to signal when the lineout is over

 

[Dickie E]

What if they move the ball to the back and then the defense engages? Scrum for accidental offside or PK for obstruction?

ref calls "use it". If they don't, scrum.

 

[Decorily]

If the lineout is over they can come round and get the ball.
If the lineout is not over they can't leave it

It's customary for the ref to signal when the lineout is over

But thepercy asked "What if they move the ball to the back and then the defence engages?"...... ie the maul has formed therefore they can't come around as you suggest!

 

[crossref]

But thepercy asked "What if they move the ball to the back and then the defence engages?"...... ie the maul has formed therefore they can't come around as you suggest!

a 'maul like thing' rather than an actual maul, right? We are talking about the scenario where one team step aside and don't maul

So if no maul has formed, and the ball has left the lineout then the lineout is over 18.37.a. The ref will lower his hand, and then the oppo can leave the lineout and go for the ball

If they do form a maul, then a maul is formed

 

[Decorily]

What if they move the ball to the back and then the defense engages? Scrum for accidental offside or PK for obstruction?

thepercy specifically asked about the scenario ".....and then the defence engages? "

 

[Dickie E]

guys, you're talking about 2 different things:
1. defenders engage with maul thing from the front, and
2. defenders don't engage but come around the back.

 

[Jarrod Burton]

But thepercy asked "What if they move the ball to the back and then the defence engages?"...... ie the maul has formed therefore they can't come around as you suggest!

No maul in the situation thepercy asks about - its a quick "use it" call and sanction from there if they don't.

 

[Pinky]

What if they move the ball to the back and then the defense engages? Scrum for accidental offside or PK for obstruction?

For me it depends on hat the ball carrying side are doing. If they are mostly stationery, then it is us it and possibly a scrum for accidental offside/ not using it. If they have started to drive forward before the defenders engage, then I am going with the PK for obstruction.

 

[crossref]

For me it depends on hat the ball carrying side are doing. If they are mostly stationery, then it is us it and possibly a scrum for accidental offside/ not using it. If they have started to drive forward before the defenders engage, then I am going with the PK for obstruction.

The whole point of the guidance is that the teams shouldn't be able to win a PK by using the non compete ploy. The best they should hope for is a scrum for accidental offside

 

[Phil E]

For me it depends on hat the ball carrying side are doing. If they are mostly stationery, then it is us it and possibly a scrum for accidental offside/ not using it. If they have started to drive forward before the defenders engage, then I am going with the PK for obstruction.

Then you are doing it different to the guidance, and potentially what every other referee is doing.