Non Throwing SH offside position

[blowheads]

Hi All,
Got pinged for this at the weekend by the other team coach.

Our 9 puts in the ball and their 9 tracks around.
My assumption is that their 9 can follow the ball and stays onside of the ball regardless where it is in the scrum, i.e. from throw in until 8 has control.
The other coach asserts that he is onside only to the hindmost foot of the flanker

Can someone pls clarify that and point me to the rule for that.

https://resources.world.rugby/worldrugby/photo/2020/11/04/b656c9c3-3eb4-4159-8c5d-7e18f7edbb98/scrum-offside-en.jpg

This picture from the Laws shows the offside line at the ball but also conveniently at the flanker's rear foot

Thanks lads!

 

[crossref]

The coach is thinking of 19.30.a

1. Once play in the scrum begins, the scrum-half of the team not in possession:
   1. Takes up a position with both feet behind the ball and close to the scrum but not in the space between the flanker and the number eight

Not quite the same, but close
And important!
Were you letting him in that space ?

 

[blowheads]

Let's say the 8 had the ball at his back foot, the opposition 8 was onside (according to me) outside the flanker but behind the ball.
Our 9 goes to pick the ball and as soon as its lifted opposition 9 comes to tackle

 

[Decorily]

The defending 9 must keep both feet behind the ball to remain onside provided they are on the same side as the ball was put in to the scrum.

 

[tim White]

Opposition scrum half must have BOTH feet behind the ball before the ball is 'played' by the feeding/playing scrum half AND not be in contact with any opponent in the scrum (contact leads to upset). IF they have fulfilled that requirement then they are entitled to tackle their opposite number BUT give the benefit of doubt over timing to the 'lifter' rather than the 'tackler' -I suggest as per ruck - UP AND CLEAR OF LEGS

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

I had a similar scenario Saturday. Agree the opposition scrum half must have bothe feet behind the ball, the dotted lines in the illustration are misleading.
1. The opposition 9 may also retire to the back foot of his own No.8 or rearmost foot in scrum either side of the scrum but must be close to the Scrum. (I dont think close is defined)
2. The opposition 9 cannot take up a place in between the feeding Flanker and No8.
I'm sure 1 and 2 were have Law clarifications somewhere hopefully not urban myths

 

[crossref]

I had a similar scenario Saturday. Agree the opposition scrum half must have bothe feet behind the ball, the dotted lines in the illustration are misleading.
1. The opposition 9 may also retire to the back foot of his own No.8 or rearmost foot in scrum either side of the scrum but must be close to the Scrum. (I dont think close is defined)
2. The opposition 9 cannot take up a place in between the feeding Flanker and No8.
I'm sure 1 and 2 were have Law clarifications somewhere hopefully not urban myths

For 1 no, if he retires to back foot he can move laterally (he doesn't have to stay close to the scrum)

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

That's what I thought but my assessor thought differently

 

[Stu10]

 

[chbg]

I had a similar scenario Saturday. Agree the opposition scrum half must have bothe feet behind the ball, the dotted lines in the illustration are misleading.
1. The opposition 9 may also retire to the back foot of his own No.8 or rearmost foot in scrum either side of the scrum but must be close to the Scrum. (I dont think close is defined)
2. The opposition 9 cannot take up a place in between the feeding Flanker and No8.
I'm sure 1 and 2 were have Law clarifications somewhere hopefully not urban myths

#1: Law 19.28 gives him two positions to start: at the middle of the scrum or 5m back.
Law 19.30b allows him then to move to the back foot of the scrum, but there is no mention of being close (nor in the diagram).
#2: Law 19.30a: "not in the space between the flanker and the number eight"

 

[Stu10]

Question - during the scrum, the SH not in possession can:

1. Permanently retire to a point on the offside line either at that team’s hindmost foot, or
2. Permanently retire at least five metres behind the hindmost foot.

Why would a SH ever chose option 2?

 

[crossref]

Question - during the scrum, the SH not in possession can:

1. Permanently retire to a point on the offside line either at that team’s hindmost foot, or
2. Permanently retire at least five metres behind the hindmost foot.

Why would a SH ever chose option 2?

Funnily enough, last week one team was reduced to 13 (one injury, one YC) and we went to uncontested scrums.
Compelled to have eight players in the scrum, they elected to not have a SH and their 9 stood in their defensive line 5m back

(I didn't ask them why, though )

 

[blowheads]

great work lads, fair play!

 

[tim White]

That's what I thought but my assessor thought differently

Careful (I agreed with you)