Not offside he was dummying!!!

BikingBud


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In response to Scotland's claim that England were offside at a ruck.

How can a professional referee not know the law?

In a high pressure international, woeful:cautious::censored:
 

chbg


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Not 15.16.g?

(Error on my part today - gave a PK not a FK. "Don't make the referee believe that the ruck has ended!")
 

Flish


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I heard the same, and thought surely our FK then, but didn’t see the actual dummy, maybe the ball was out, then he dummied?
 

BikingBud


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I heard the same, and thought surely our FK then, but didn’t see the actual dummy, maybe the ball was out, then he dummied?
If he thought the ball was out then the call should have been, "BALL OUT - Play On"?‍♂️
 

Arabcheif

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Not sure what ruck you guy are referring to. When did this happen in the match, I'll go have a look.
 

crossref


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My interpretation was that he considered the ball out all along and the scrum half was pretending that it was still in. So a sort of dummy, but not an illegal dummy (which is to pretend that it's out)
 

BikingBud


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Not sure what ruck you guy are referring to. When did this happen in the match, I'll go have a look.
So about 73:30 Scotland defending ruck on their own 22m. Caterpillar lines up, scrum hall faffs around rearranging the ball before lifting and kicking. Itoje charges down but is deemed to be offside. But perhaps adjusting the standard for the next decision.

Scotland kick to touch and get line out just inside England 10m line. Win line out, (not straight), couple of rucks right to left.
74:50 mins ruck in question, England not really competing but spread across the pitch, difficult to tell if there was a dummy as the camera angle changes to wide shot but ref definitely calls "No he dummied, play on."

Nigel comments upon the incident @76:15 game clock, while they are reviewing foul play. Perhaps Nigel's secondary comment is more concerning in that Scotland were lucky but justice could be done here!!
 

number11


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I watched the incident on iPlayer (at 2:26:36).

I'm certain that the ball doesn't leave the ground and the SH's hands remain on the ball. But I think he changed his footing, which must have looked like he was going for it.

Law 15.15.g states "Take any action to make opponents believe that the ruck has ended when it has not.". I'd give the SH the benefit of the doubt here. It doesn't look like a deliberate dummy, he's just adjusting his stance for the pass. I don't think a penalty for offside would have been unfair.
 

BikingBud


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I watched the incident on iPlayer (at 2:26:36).

I'm certain that the ball doesn't leave the ground and the SH's hands remain on the ball. But I think he changed his footing, which must have looked like he was going for it.

Law 15.15.g states "Take any action to make opponents believe that the ruck has ended when it has not.". I'd give the SH the benefit of the doubt here. It doesn't look like a deliberate dummy, he's just adjusting his stance for the pass. I don't think a penalty for offside would have been unfair.
This is not about your, or my, perception of the incident.

This is about the action of the referee, who with full visibility of the breakdown, decided and vocalised that there was a dummy.

He cannot give the benefit of doubt for a material transgression that he has observed and sated to the world that he has observed.

Once has decided this was a dummy and with knowledge of the laws, as should be expected for an international referee, he should have awarded the FK.

Interesting that we can discuss at great lengths the judgment about the last minute scrums and those judgements stemming from personal perspective but the referee called dummy and didn't apply the law.

Not optional, no interpretation, no advantage, go straight to FK.
 

Stu10

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Scottish scrum half getting away with a dummy at the back of a ruck/maul... I can't believe that!

(From last year's Calcutta Cup)
 

didds

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I suppose the question is "define a dummy"...

he hasnt dummied moving the ball. Just dipped and swayed his knees.

Is that a dummy?

Of course - if its not... then why did he do it ...
 

BikingBud


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@Stu10 - Did the ref call dummy?
@didds - ?No need to define it, the ref called it, the action that he witnessed met his definition of a dummy.

We may differ in our opinions but he made his opinion known and he vocalised that identification of a dummy to all those playing, watching etc.

The question is how a professional referee does not then call the FK?
?‍♂️
 

belladonna

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1:50:11 into this video

"No, he dummied, play on.... BALL WAS OUT"
 

Jz558


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Having listened again I dont think he said, "no he dummied" I think he says "no dummy". He then adds "play on" and then "ball was out" which makes sense as otherwise the England backline would all be offside having gone early. To me it looks like the ball was clearly behind the back foot of the ruck and the Scotland 9 held it on the ground and delayed playing it away.
 

Stu10

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I suppose the question is "define a dummy"...

he hasnt dummied moving the ball. Just dipped and swayed his knees.

Is that a dummy?

Of course - if its not... then why did he do it ...
No need to define a dummy... let's just look at the laws... did the Scotland scrum half "Take any action to make opponents believe that the ruck has ended when it has not."... yes, he did!

EDIT - I've re-watched... the ball looks out and in scrum-half's possession... the Scottish players have no ground to call offside against England and the ref's comment seems bizarre on reflection.
@Stu10 - Did the ref call dummy?

Regarding last year's game, no, he didn't make any call or appear to have a word with the scrum-half afterwards.
 
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belladonna

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No need to define a dummy... let's just look at the laws... did the Scotland scrum half "Take any action to make opponents believe that the ruck has ended when it has not."... yes, he did!



No, he didn't make any call or appear to have a word with the scrum half afterwards.
... but not if the ball was already actually out though
 

BikingBud


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1:50:11 into this video

"No, he dummied, play on.... BALL WAS OUT"
So do we now discuss his ineffective communication as it appears he "misspoke"?

You can capitalise all you wish to but his first utterance is "No, he dummied" a gap of a few seconds and then "ball was out"

Why would you call dummy if you hadn't seen that?

If the ball is out you call in response to the blue player's claims of offside "No, ball out, play on."
No need to define a dummy... let's just look at the laws... did the Scotland scrum half "Take any action to make opponents believe that the ruck has ended when it has not."... yes, he did!

No, he didn't make any call or appear to have a word with the scrum half afterwards.
So point 1 you feel the blue SH took action that should have been penalised? I am not convinced of that but that is not my concern.

Point 2, have you listened to the audio? What is your perception of what the referee said as this is the point I'm making? Is it similar to what @belladonna heard?

He called it as a dummy but didn't call an offence and he did not have a word later, perhaps because he didn't realise the SH had transgressed.

Wonder what feedback he got? We all know that Nigel Owens commented upon it during the game but it seems on here that I'm in a parallel time warp that doesn't want to accept it.o_O
 

didds

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No need to define a dummy... let's just look at the laws... did the Scotland scrum half "Take any action to make opponents believe that the ruck has ended when it has not."... yes, he did!
IN your opinion, he did.

In mine. - not sufficiently. The hands never moved for starters.

Id however agree with the cynical question "then why did he do it" - but that aint a dummy to me.

didds
 

belladonna

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So do we now discuss his ineffective communication as it appears he "misspoke"?

You can capitalise all you wish to but his first utterance is "No, he dummied" a gap of a few seconds and then "ball was out"

Why would you call dummy if you hadn't seen that?

If the ball is out you call in response to the blue player's claims of offside "No, ball out, play on."

So point 1 you feel the blue SH took action that should have been penalised? I am not convinced of that but that is not my concern.

Point 2, have you listened to the audio? What is your perception of what the referee said as this is the point I'm making? Is it similar to what @belladonna heard?

He called it as a dummy but didn't call an offence and he did not have a word later, perhaps because he didn't realise the SH had transgressed.

Wonder what feedback he got? We all know that Nigel Owens commented upon it during the game but it seems on here that I'm in a parallel time warp that doesn't want to accept it.o_O
Because if the ball is out of the ruck it's not an offence to dummy. Simples.

15.6.g Players must not: Take any action to make opponents believe that the ruck has ended WHEN IT HAS NOT.

 

belladonna

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Ball clearly already out before SH has moved a muscle
Screenshot_20220216-005359_Opera.jpg
 
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