Not offside he was dummying!!!

Dave Elliott

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If he thought the ball was out then the call should have been, "BALL OUT - Play On"?‍♂️
So at what level do you stop telling players the ball is out, if any?
I do at lower level games, but as they get higher I just let the players make the decision. If I feel it’s not I just tell them no and they get back on side
 

Mipper


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To me it appears that the 9 took an action to make opponents believe that the ruck has not ended when it has.

as an aside, I did a game a couple of weeks ago when one SH did this all the way through the game. I could not believe that the oppo didn’t pick up on it.
 

didds

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Part of the problem with this ball was out issue in modern times is because of the mess that rucks have become; often the ball is out but the ruck offside lines are still implemented in order to keep a flowing game, not full of scrumhalves being scragged/tackled/smashed each time the flop of bodies isnt on its feet over the ball.

My recollection is he dipped his knees a few times, without moving his hands, and everybody TREATED that as ball in/ruck in place. Whereas the reality was it seems the ruck was over and #9 could have been smashed / the ball picked up by an opponent? But they didnt becasue they fear being PKd cos now nobody really knows when the flop of bodies is and isnt a ruck any longer?
 

Arabcheif

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So looking at the video. He's put hands on the ball. The ball is in the ruck, not past the back foot of a bound player (see the close up on page 1 near the bottom). He then adjusts his footing to have a better passing angle. This isn't an action taken to try and deceive. The ref calls "No, no dummy, play on." I get that the was it was it not a dummy can be subjective, but he ref def doesn't shout "No he dummied play on" He shouts; "No, no dummy, play on." The rucks are indeed a mess to referee. I always go by if I can see the ball, 99% of the time it can be played. So I tell the 9 to play it, then use it.
 

belladonna

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So looking at the video. He's put hands on the ball. The ball is in the ruck, not past the back foot of a bound player (see the close up on page 1 near the bottom). He then adjusts his footing to have a better passing angle. This isn't an action taken to try and deceive. The ref calls "No, no dummy, play on." I get that the was it was it not a dummy can be subjective, but he ref def doesn't shout "No he dummied play on" He shouts; "No, no dummy, play on." The rucks are indeed a mess to referee. I always go by if I can see the ball, 99% of the time it can be played. So I tell the 9 to play it, then use it.
Ball out of the ruck is not defined by the hindmost foot, it's defined by an imaginary elastic wrapped around the players limbs in the ruck. The ball was clearly out.
 

Arabcheif

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Ball out of the ruck is not defined by the hindmost foot, it's defined by an imaginary elastic wrapped around the players limbs in the ruck. The ball was clearly out



In that case the ball is pretty much always out of the ruck as it is nearly impossible for the ball to remain within the aforementioned elastic. It's not how I manage matches. If the ball is put down behind the attacking team's (team in possession); offside line I'll deem that as out. It just stops the defense flying up and trying to play the ball because the point is sticking out the side. Most players seem to like that, I'm also faster at shouting the ball is out than most refs do when I'm playing. But like I said I only shout when the ball passes the team in possession's offside line as that's the end of the ruck once it passes there.
 

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In that case the ball is pretty much always out of the ruck as it is nearly impossible for the ball to remain within the aforementioned elastic. It's not how I manage matches. If the ball is put down behind the attacking team's (team in possession); offside line I'll deem that as out. It just stops the defense flying up and trying to play the ball because the point is sticking out the side. Most players seem to like that, I'm also faster at shouting the ball is out than most refs do when I'm playing. But like I said I only shout when the ball passes the team in possession's offside line as that's the end of the ruck once it passes there.
At the risk of sounding like some of the more jobsworths - what about if the rearmost player is on their feet in a squat position and the ball is behind their feet but under their butt?
 

Arabcheif

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At the risk of sounding like some of the more jobsworths - what about if the rearmost player is on their feet in a squat position and the ball is behind their feet but under their butt?
I'd say it's not out because it's not past the rear most part of a player in the ruck. But I liked CR's response to that lmao
 

Camquin

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So in that case, can the 9 advance as far as the back feet, or only the rear rear?
Not that anyone cares if the 9 from the side that has secured the ball is offside.
 

belladonna

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I'd say it's not out because it's not past the rear most part of a player in the ruck. But I liked CR's response to that lmao
Did someone tell you to referee the ruck this way, or is it your personal interpretation?
 

Jarrod Burton


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So in that case, can the 9 advance as far as the back feet, or only the rear rear?
Not that anyone cares if the 9 from the side that has secured the ball is offside.
This is drifting into the area of intepretation of a vague section of the laws. "Out of the ruck" isn't precisely described as the sport and that phase can be very dynamic (and equally very boring if attackers kill the contest every time). I usually take the inteprepration that if its clear of of the ruck and not under a player then the ball is out. Others demand the ball be "open to the sky", "clear of bodies" or the most vague "clear to be picked up" - try explaining that one to a captain or ref assessor.
 

Stu10

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I've re-watched... the ball looks out and in scrum-half's possession... the Scottish players have no ground to call offside against England and the ref's comment seems bizarre on reflection.
 

didds

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I refer the
I've re-watched... the ball looks out and in scrum-half's possession... the Scottish players have no ground to call offside against England and the ref's comment seems bizarre on reflection.
I refer the honourable gentlemen to the answer I gave in post #23.

didds
 

Stu10

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A related situation happened yesterday in our u15 match.... even though it was only 24 hours ago, I've already forgotten if it was a scrum or a ruck, anyway, the ball was on the floor completely beyond the last foot (other team) and the scrum-half was standing over the ball with his hands on it, but just waiting for a call or a runner... my son (would be, of course :rolleyes: ) was playing 10 and came charging up... ref blew for offside and our other coach was screaming at my son for "such an obvious and stupid mistake"... I think the ball was out.

On a side note, the ref was overall poor... I find it so frustrating to watch from the sideline when the ref with the whistle is so poor (some shocking decisions, no signals at all and sometimes not even a whistle, inconsistent (one might call it biased), and then blew the final whistle mid play as we'd just made a break in their 22 - he said his watch went off so time was up. One of their coaches was stood with me and highlighted many of the issues, so it wasn't just my rose-tinted glasses :ROFLMAO:.
 

Phil E


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On a side note, the ref was overall poor...

Can we please refrain from slagging off referees? It's bad enough when the touchline does it!
Every referee is a volunteer and doing their best. We are desperately short of referees and comments like this don't help people who might be considering taking up the whistle!
 

didds

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whilst i do agree with Phil generally, I do have to say that at youth levels, in England (I cant comment for other nations) levels mostly refs are coaches, and as coach, and one time RFU developer etc , IMO there are a lot of very poor coaches out there who I suspect make even poorer refs. These people ref because they often see it as their right to do so. Yes, they are a volunteer, yes the game cannot go on with out them. But their total lack of interest in reffing for reffing's sake makes for some very poor experiences, and/or demonstrating a total lack of empathy for the game, its values, what players are genuinely trying to achieve, and yes, at times, a thorough ignorance of the laws and age group regulations (the latter is a double worry because if they don't understand those regs, what on earth are they coaching)
 
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Arabcheif

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Did someone tell you to referee the ruck this way, or is it your personal interpretation?
This is what my Ref Soc has said. If it's within the 2d "ring" the ball, on the ground is in the ruck. If it's in the 2d "ring" but picked up then it's out and the 9 can be tackled. Outside the 2d "ring," the ball is playable and anyone who was onside at the time the ball came out can play it - ruck is over now.
 

crossref


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whilst i do agree with Phil generally, I do have to say that at youth levels, in England (I cant comment for other nations) levels mostly refs are coaches, and as coach, and one time RFU developer etc , IMO there are a lot of very poor coaches out there who I suspect make even poorer refs. These people ref because they often see it as their right to do so. Yes, they are a volunteer, yes the game cannot go on with out them. But their total lack of interest in reffing for reffing's sake makes for some very poor experiences, and/or demonstrating a total lack of empathy for the game, its values, what players are genuinely trying to achieve, and yes, at times, a thorough ignorance of the laws and age group regulations (the latter is a double worry because if they don't understand those regs, what on earth are they coaching)
i'd sort of push this back to the clubs -- what is their plan/process to develop club refs for youth games?
my experience is that some clubs have healthy ref sections (and develop great refs)
other clubs : it's never seemed to have even occurred to them
 

didds

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Its also horses to water.

back in the day when I was a CCC, I also took on the mantle of CRefC as it was same same but different.
Getting volunteer dads onto the bare minimum coaching courses, let alone any knowledge/ability development stuff, was the devils own job. Let alone then getting them also onto any ref development.

So Im totally with CR's idea... but my admittedly very limited experience in this area doesn't fill me with much hope I'm afraid.

I suppose it could come down not to a "don't take the courses, then there are no games permitted" is fine in principle - but who potentially actually misses out here? The players, whose "fault" it is not.
 
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