Not offside he was dummying!!!

crossref


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Its also horses to water.

back in the day when I was a CCC, I also took on the mantle of CRefC as it was same same but different.
Getting volunteer dads onto the bare minimum coaching courses, let alone any knowledge/ability development stuff, was the devils own job. Let alone then getting them also onto any ref development.

So Im totally with CR's idea... but my admittedly very limited experience in this area doesn't fill me with much hope I'm afraid.

I suppose it could come down not to a "don't take the courses, then there are no games permitted" is fine in principle - but who potentially actually misses out here? The players, whose "fault" it is not.
i think its softer than that - encouraging / communicating etc. Once it gets going it's self perpetuating, but can be hard to get going
Also I think the set of parents who might want to coach are not the same as the set of parents who might want to ref (of course there is overlap). so it's finding them
 

Marc Wakeham


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whilst i do agree with Phil generally, I do have to say that at youth levels, in England (I cant comment for other nations) levels mostly refs are coaches, and as coach, and one time RFU developer etc , IMO there are a lot of very poor coaches out there who I suspect make even poorer refs. These people ref because they often see it as their right to do so. Yes, they are a volunteer, yes the game cannot go on with out them. But their total lack of interest in reffing for reffing's sake makes for some very poor experiences, and/or demonstrating a total lack of empathy for the game, its values, what players are genuinely trying to achieve, and yes, at times, a thorough ignorance of the laws and age group regulations (the latter is a double worry because if they don't understand those regs, what on earth are they coaching)
Youth in Wales are refereed by society referees not club guys. of ten they get some of the most experienced of our district guys
 

crossref


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Youth in Wales are refereed by society referees not club guys. of ten they get some of the most experienced of our district guys
From what age do the societies appoint ?
(My society appoint to u18 and sometimes u17
 

Marc Wakeham


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The Union, through regional appointment officers, appoiint from Youth up. So clubs appoint up to U16. Some clubs do seek a L2 (WRU) level independent referee for games if they feel it would be handy But up to Pre youth a LI (WRU) is "legal" U14 / 15 and 16 play to Youth laws but are not considered youth.
 

Jz558


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When I coached age groups I generally found referees at the clubs we visited pretty good. By contrast the standard of refereeing for schools games when I watched my son play was markedly worse and in some cases frankly appalling (I use that word because I dont want to ever accuse a referee of cheating).
 

Mipper


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Youth in Wales are refereed by society referees not club guys. of ten they get some of the most experienced of our district guys
I spent 4 years coaching U18 and I would guess that about 20% of the games were reffed by society refs. The remainder by club refs (who were sometimes society refs attached to the club, but were not at the sufficient level to ref an U18 game on behalf of the society).
Sometimes the ’club ref’ was a player who was only there to pick up his kit from the day before.
Mostly it was one of the coaches, or a dad who “used to play a bit”.
a lot of them are not great, and most would admit as much, but our game needs them, so whilst I am very much not a fan of criticising refs, it is important to recognise that we have a lot of junior rugby being officiated by poor refs. This is a problem for the game.
The paradox being of course, that we need these people, and we should also be extremely grateful to them.
This is one reason I switched to refereeing.

I should add also, that the fairly recent “trend” for overt criticism of refs through the media, really does not help the ‘stand-in’ ref because the Sunday fans, who have become touchline experts, having listened to Austin Healey or Dean Richards (what was he thinking?) can criticise every decision that goes against their kids team.

This is another reason I switched the refereeing.
 

Marc Wakeham


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I spent 4 years coaching U18 and I would guess that about 20% of the games were reffed by society refs. The remainder by club refs (who were sometimes society refs attached to the club, but were not at the sufficient level to ref an U18 game on behalf of the society).
Sometimes the ’club ref’ was a player who was only there to pick up his kit from the day before.
Mostly it was one of the coaches, or a dad who “used to play a bit”.
a lot of them are not great, and most would admit as much, but our game needs them, so whilst I am very much not a fan of criticising refs, it is important to recognise that we have a lot of junior rugby being officiated by poor refs. This is a problem for the game.
The paradox being of course, that we need these people, and we should also be extremely grateful to them.
This is one reason I switched to refereeing.

I should add also, that the fairly recent “trend” for overt criticism of refs through the media, really does not help the ‘stand-in’ ref because the Sunday fans, who have become touchline experts, having listened to Austin Healey or Dean Richards (what was he thinking?) can criticise every decision that goes against their kids team.

This is another reason I switched the refereeing.
Here it just does not work like that. You can not referee any rugby with out a suitable licence. To do TAG you must have at least a Tag licence to referee up to U16 you must have an L1 and for youth and above it is a L2. To do Welsh league it requires a L3. No "dad" refs or ex player wh ohappenn t obe at the club. All coaches for up to U16 must have a referee licence t oallow them to ref their age group so all games should have several "refs" available.

Trouble is few, if any, L1 referees turn up to society meetings so they get hopelessly out of touch.
 

Phil E


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Here it just does not work like that. You can not referee any rugby with out a suitable licence. To do TAG you must have at least a Tag licence to referee up to U16 you must have an L1 and for youth and above it is a L2. To do Welsh league it requires a L3. No "dad" refs or ex player wh ohappenn t obe at the club. All coaches for up to U16 must have a referee licence t oallow them to ref their age group so all games should have several "refs" available.

Trouble is few, if any, L1 referees turn up to society meetings so they get hopelessly out of touch.

Unfortunately if we employed something like that in RFU land hundreds of games would just not take place due to a lack of referees.
 

Marc Wakeham


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Unfortunately if we employed something like that in RFU land hundreds of games would just not take place due to a lack of referees.
Possibly but it may just push the recruitment plan forward. When clubs keep getting no referees they might decide it is tine to act. It doe seem odd that people can rock up with no evidence of any law knowledge and they referee un-checked.
 

crossref


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Possibly but it may just push the recruitment plan forward. When clubs keep getting no referees they might decide it is tine to act. It doe seem odd that people can rock up with no evidence of any law knowledge and they referee un-checked.
They can coach like that
(Nb in both cases they would have to be DBS checked)
 

didds

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They can coach like that
(Nb in both cases they would have to be DBS checked)
all i can say - given I havent been a CCC for over a decade now - is that at our club a coach that just refused/managed to never attend a course would be politely requested (at first ;-) ) to step down. Mainly I suspect because on the whole as a club we didnt lack for coaches in the erarly years at least, and by the time the squad have reached U11/U12 they've probably got their coaches for life whoi have jumped through some coaching hoops.

Whether that may or may not translate into refs would remain to be seen, and i strongly suspect would differ on a club by club basis. Wales seem to have got it right, but how they reached the position of that working i can't comment. maybe its because rugby is a more "common man" game with far more people attached to the game demographically ?

I had quite stringent views on coaches when CCC, none of which ever came to fruition becasuae ultimately (unfortunately iMO) what we had was a plethora of happy dads, and very few people that vwere fully uinto coaching for coaching's sake. they basically coached because their son was in the squads (rarely daughters back then sadly but thats another discussion for nanother day) ... and tat scenario *(coach b/c of son) had various issues surrounding it sometimes. Generally I didnt have issues getting the happy dad's onto L1s, but anything "extra" was really difficult as it seemed for many the mum/wife had quite an input into how much time the dads werent putting into the garden, decorating, DIY, whatever. (Going by direct feedback at the time). I tried to get people interested in reffing but (memory a tad hazy here) it seems it was full ELRA PLUS a module for continnum/AGRs as was, rather than a "mini", "Midi" reffing course and the dads didnt want to sopend a weekend (or two?) being qualified to refr (in effect) a seniors 3rd XV, they just wanted some pointers to handle the age group they were at. So as a club we did our best - but even that was then subject to the "oh i cant stay uon until 1pm as we are going to auntie gladys' 80th birthday dinner - for what seemed like gladys' 12th 80th birthday in a year if you get my drift.

I ended up just being pragmatic - leading horses to water as best i could.

It certainly wasnt ideal, and far from what I personally thought was needed, but it was what it was and ultimately was one reason why I finally stopped as CCC
 

Marc Wakeham


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We are still short of refs from time to time. But if does provide us with ammunition
 

chbg


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Successful thread hijack from Post #35 onwards!

It is a problem and I try to be as available as I can be on Sundays, as well as Saturdays. Invariably welcomed, as the coaches want to coach, not referee. Without a weekday job, I have also refereed this season about 15x U15 school KO matches (which are to be taken by a Society ref if at all possible), varying from 80% Law coaching in Round 1 (U14 regs this season) up to national QFs. Thoroughly rewarding.

(During the summer, I officiate at athletics events - at school events it is invariably the rule that no travelling expenses are available. Albeit the child/official ratio is probably 1:20 or less, compare and contrast!)
 

crossref


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The Union, through regional appointment officers, appoiint from Youth up. So clubs appoint up to U16. Some clubs do seek a L2 (WRU) level independent referee for games if they feel it would be handy But up to Pre youth a LI (WRU) is "legal" U14 / 15 and 16 play to Youth laws but are not considered youth.
That doesn't
 

SimonSmith


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When I was young, foolish and still in Hampshire, I would referee adults on Saturday and then get sent to do U16 or above on a Sunday.

The big advantage was that the clubs to which I got sent (Winchester, Basinsgtoke, Alton or Petersfield) had decent referee contingents who would often come out to watch the referee du jour and chat in the bar afterwards. A great learning environemnt all round.
 

Stu10

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They can coach like that
(Nb in both cases they would have to be DBS checked)
Our club chairman recently sent this out to all our coaches/refs. The message indicated this expectation is from Cheshire RFU (though I'll admit that I don't know if this is actually a requirement.)

Everyone coaching must meet the below as a minimum.
Standard Practice (Coaches & Referees)
1. Completion of DBS
2. Complete Play it Safe eLearning course
(www.englandrugby.com/headcase)
3. Have committed to COP
4. RFU UKCC Coaching / Refereeing Qualification.

Successful thread hijack from Post #35 onwards!
? apologies ?

Overall I agree that "ref bashing" is bad, but I also find it challenging when the kids walk off the pitch unhappy and saying they didn't enjoy playing today because of the referee. Around here each team has at least 3 coaches (so 6 coaches at each game between both sides), so IMHO at least 1 should take responsibility to learn the laws and undertake some level of ref training. I understand we need a ref to have a game, but is there a point that a terrible game does more damage to player retention than a cancelled game?
 

crossref


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. Around here each team has at least 3 coaches (so 6 coaches at each game between both sides), so IMHO at least 1 should take responsibility to learn the laws and undertake some level of ref training. I understand we need a ref to have a game, but is there a point that a terrible game does more damage to player retention than a cancelled game?
that is exactly how I started ... I was that 1
later I became the club ref coordinator and would walk round the age groups with exactly that message.

Some clubs do this very very well, and develop lots of refs.
 
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