NW Rugby vs RFU Competition Review

WombleRef


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The RFU competitions review for L7 and below is going to be a fun document to read at the end of the month....

As it stands I know of Leigh and Orrell giving up on North Two West (both admittedly having torrid seasons as well) and joining the ADM. I genuinely don't know how many teams will be left at Level 7 in the RFU pyramid in the North West before the end of the month...

Leigh's move has just been confirmed:
There are rumours on the grape vine of others moving as well... from an outsiders perspective - I imagine Bolton, Della and Tarleton will make the jump otherwise they'll spend the next god knows how many seasons on near constant away trips to Cumbria...

Something has to change - any idea what?
 

didds

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purely for knowledge - "ADM" is what? obvs another competition - possibly area/union?

cheers

didds
 

WombleRef


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purely for knowledge - "ADM" is what? obvs another competition - possibly area/union?

cheers

didds
Oops sorry!

The ADM is the sponsor name for a breakaway league - long title the ADM Lancashire League.

A group of 36ish clubs in Lancs and Cheshire have broken out of the RFU league structure. It’s formally considered a merit table but at this point contains all the county level rugby. Every single team joined in protest of travel to Cumbria repeatedly in the seasons and how the RFU did nothing to deal with it…
 

buff


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How long a trip would that involve for most clubs?
 

WombleRef


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How long a trip would that involve for most clubs?
For Bolton (team in the Middle of Lancashire essentially) - they have at least 3 trips to North Cumbria each season - trips of about 2/2.5 hours each. This is the bottom tier of the RFU league in the North West as it stands and so it's very much a pay to play kind of culture for these teams.

Speaking of - Bolton and Southport have just announced they will be joining the breakaway teams in the Lancashire ADM...

It appears the argument being made is that they will split Cumbria off into a Level 7 league, leaving an RFU Level 7 league of 6 Lancs teams and any 2nd XV sides that want to join the fun...

The PDF below has been posted on the ADM Lancs league website which makes you realise just how political it all is...
 

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buff


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Thanks. I have no sense of the geography, but given far more clubs than we have (I assume) in a much smaller area, that travel schedule looks a lot like ours, especially when the Ottawa clubs played in the Quebec league.
 

Ciaran Trainor


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This whole sorry saga has been a disaster for Cumbrian clubs who have been totally isolated by this process.
The proposed Level 7 Cumbria league will contain clubs that are at a minimum L9 possibly lower and if the compete wil regularly be on the receiving end of 100 point hidings.
A few couldn't even compete in the L8 structure this season and pulled out and there are a few in real danger of disappearing altogether.
I hope I'm wrong.
 

WombleRef


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This whole sorry saga has been a disaster for Cumbrian clubs who have been totally isolated by this process.
The proposed Level 7 Cumbria league will contain clubs that are at a minimum L9 possibly lower and if the compete wil regularly be on the receiving end of 100 point hidings.
A few couldn't even compete in the L8 structure this season and pulled out and there are a few in real danger of disappearing altogether.
I hope I'm wrong.
I hope you do too..

I'm worried for rugby in Lancashire as it is let alone with the mess that we're causing in Cumbria. This whole situation is embarrassing...
 

didds

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maybe its tinme to just abandon leagues and go oback to each club arranging a fixture list against clubs that are close enough both geographically and ability?

I can see that may stuff the clubs at the most upper and lower ends of that current league setup however
 

WombleRef


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Grapevine talk is that Cumbria are breaking off, the ADM league are taking the existing rules of the ADM but rejoining the structure so as to have promotion to Level 6 from the top of Level 7.

Basically common sense has prevailed!
 

Ciaran Trainor


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I doubt Cumbria are breaking off.
Most clubs are genuinely concerned about the isolation caused by the Lancashire breakaway leagues.
 

WombleRef


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I doubt Cumbria are breaking off.
Most clubs are genuinely concerned about the isolation caused by the Lancashire breakaway leagues.

By Cumbria breaking off I mean very limited mixing...

League Rugby as we know it will not see Lancs/Cumbria together below Level 6 seemingly...
 

WombleRef


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I doubt Cumbria are breaking off.
Most clubs are genuinely concerned about the isolation caused by the Lancashire breakaway leagues.
Now the dust has settled - what's the picture looking like in Cumbria?

Lancashire in terms of 1st XV rugby is probably how the envisioned it - few teams that have dropped down to levels I don't think I'd expect - (Burnley for example down to Level 10 from Level 7 pre-COVID)
 

Ciaran Trainor


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Well there are going to be a few cricket scores. Cumbria Counties league 1 is nominally Level 7 but contain teams which would in other areas be at least L9. Half the clubs only running 1 team and because it is currently a 13 team league which would mean more than the current 22 league games allowed, only the first half fixtures out meaning some clubs will travel to "top" teams, Get stuffed and might not even get a reverse fixture as the current plan I think is to split the league to top 6 and bottom 7 for a play off type mini league.
 

Ciaran Trainor


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News filtering through that one of the clubs has indicated they want to withdraw as training numbers have been poor and they cannot field a front row! This is going to be a growing problem in Cumbria and maybe elsewhere. In my area, no schools play Rugby Union, and the RFU have removed most of the Development team. There is no way kids can learn how to play in the front row as there is no junior rugby. Very worrying
 

Phil E


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For thos who are interested these are the league levels (5 down):
Regional 1 = Level 5
Regional 2 = Level 6
Counties 1 = Level 7
Counties 2 = Level 8
Counties 3 = Level 9
Counties 4 = Level 10

The division members can be found here:
 

didds

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In my area, no schools play Rugby Union, and the RFU have removed most of the Development team. There is no way kids can learn how to play in the front row as there is no junior rugby. Very worrying
In my slighly old experience/perception (youngest child is now 22, eldest 27) even round these parts (state) schools rugby doesn't really develop/coach such stuff. I know our local secondary schools PE staff often had rugby ready at least under their belts as I delivered RR courses that they attended ... I cant however say I know that transcended to school PE lessons. As it is if my kids played FR at school they had been through our club's junior section and had all played FR positions ()either prop or hooker) so I was reasonably OK with them playing there . Ive no vision now of what the schools do wrt rugby these days - maybe its all touch or uncontested scrums. But i cant see (state) schools have the time to coach full scrummaging skills etc in their limited curriculum, being fair to them.

In areas such as Ciaran describes with no junior rugby goodness knows how anybody learns these skills short of clubs having the time etc to coach 18 year olds from scratch maybe.
The more holistic concern is if there is no junuior club rugby, and no school rugby, where do the clubs get their senior numbers in ten years time and remain viable? (which fits in with Ciaran's opoint about one club already pulling out etc)
 

didds

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For thos who are interested these are the league levels (5 down):
Regional 1 = Level 5
Regional 2 = Level 6
Counties 1 = Level 7
Counties 2 = Level 8
Counties 3 = Level 9
Counties 4 = Level 10
has this changed of late?
Cos for a very long time Dorset & wilts Div 1 was level 8, then Southern Counties - a limted area regional league - was level 7 ?

ive now found this


but that doesnt equate to previous understanding either

"
The changes for the 2022/23 season have been summarised in the table below with the key changes for reference below.
...
Eighteen leagues at Counties 1 (formerly Level 7)"
but formerly level 7 was the first rung above county league structure (see above)
 
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Phil E


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Yes this is all new this season.
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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Yorkshire 1 in old money was L7 and the top of the County pyramid. That fed into (formally - L6 North 1 East) which was Yorkshire teams plus Durham & Northumberland.

Counties 1 Yorkshire is L7 under the new regime and L6 (on our side of the Pennies) is now termed Regional 2 North East. Regional 2 North East is now wholly Yorkshire Teams apart from one in North Derbyshire which to all intents and purposes is a suburb of Sheffield.

Middlesbrough who won Yorkshire 1 (L7) last year are in Regional 2 North along with other D&N teams as well as Ciaran's Cumbrian mates.

I suppose Region/County Levels distinction (as was) depends on how big your County is.;)
 
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