NZ v Ireland Test 2 - Red card situation with Savea

[Marc Wakeham]

The reason is to stop you flooding your team with the quicker guys. as a tactical option.

 

[didds]

I suppose down at bthe community level it means props can continue to actually bother to turn up next week, rather than be used as dispaosable pawns in a game of "get a lead, swap them out" etc.

Dont really care what happens at pro levels as they make it up as they go along anyway

 

[crossref]

The reason is to stop you flooding your team with the quicker guys. as a tactical option.

of course, but why is that seen as a bad thing? Scrums are uncontested let's bring the speedsters on and play some expansive attackingrugby. What's not to like?

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Because the other side may have made tactical substitions based on the situation and contested scrums and then one sides takes away their weapon of the scrum and skews the contest with a team full of speedsters. Only if you allow rolling subs as a minimum (and reset the not "offending" sides count to zero) can this be remotey fair

 

[crossref]

Because the other side may have made tactical substitions based on the situation and conteested scrums and then one sides takes away their weapon of the scrum and skews the contest with a team full of speedsters. Only if you allow rolling subs as a minimum (and reset the not "offending" sides count to zero) can this be remotey fair

But both teams could take off their props

 

[Marc Wakeham]

But both teams could take off their props

Not ift the've lread change the fast boys so that they no longer have the option. Put simply a side should not be able to benefit from going uncontested.

 

[crossref]

Not ift the've lread change the fast boys so that they no longer have the option. Put simply a side should not be able to benefit from going uncontested.

But why should the non-offending team?
Scenario
- red prop is injured, no FR replacement so we go uncontested,
- why can't blue take off their props and bring on back row?

In a situation where man off does not apply, red can bring on a flanker, but blue can't . Why is that right?

 

[Marc Wakeham]

But why should the non-offending team?
Scenario
- red prop is injured, no FR replacement so we go uncontested,
- why can't blue take off their props and bring on back row?

In a situation where man off does not apply, red can bring on a flanker, but blue can't . Why is that right?

Well in that scenario one problen is at the end of the YC Blues replacement in permenant so now they must lose a man as they are forcing uncontested.

 

[crossref]

Well in that scenario one problen is at the end of the YC Blues replacement in permenant so now they must lose a man as they are forcing uncontested.

Blue are the non offending team

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Indeed so they were not forced to make the change so it is not covered by the YC rules.

 

[crossref]

I am talking about the rule that you have to play front row players in the scrum, even when scrums are uncontested. This is nothing to do with YC

So . Scenario
... Red prop has injury and goes off
.. no STE replacement so uncontested
.. no man off (perhaps it's a head injury, or man off does not apply in this league or other reason) so 15 v 15
.. Red have no front row available so bring on a speedster

Blue cannot bring on their speedster


So red cause uncontested but blue are at a disadvantage


I would let both teams make replacements if they want to

 

[Marc Wakeham]

It uselally happens at the top when a card is issued so the sceario is important.

Anyway we will not agree. I'm out.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

I'd suggest that at ANY level, if the referee becomes aware of too many players (irrespective of how he/she becomes aware) then the sanction of 3.3 applies (in bold below) noting that 3.3 says:

A team may make an objection to the referee about the number of players in their opponents’ team. If a team has too many players, the referee orders the captain of that team to reduce the number appropriately. The score at the time of the objection remains unaltered. Sanction: Penalty.

OK so where is the penalty awarded?

 

[Marc Wakeham]

OK so where is the penalty awarded?

I'd award it where play stopped.

 

[tim White]

"Where play would restart" -I doubt any ref would try to count the players with the ball in play, so at the next stoppage award PK and restart from there.

Of course, what do you give if the next stoppage is the scoring of a try??????

 

[Marc Wakeham]

"Where play would restart" -I doubt any ref would try to count the players with the ball in play, so at the next stoppage award PK and restart from there.

Of course, what do you give if the next stoppage is the scoring of a try??????

1: Indeed: players shout "Ref they have an extra man" Knock of occurs. Stop and count. If the "claim" is correct award the PK where the Scrum would take place. If the "claim" claim is wrong have the scrum.
2: Try stands and PK at the centre of the half way line (where play would restart)

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

1: Indeed: players shout "Ref they have an extra man" Knock of occurs. Stop and count. If the "claim" is correct award the PK where the Scrum would take place. If the "claim" claim is wrong have the scrum.
2: Try stands and PK at the centre of the half way line (where play would restart)

I guess the try wouldn't stand for the team with the extra man

 

[Jarrod Burton]

"Where play would restart" -I doubt any ref would try to count the players with the ball in play, so at the next stoppage award PK and restart from there.

Of course, what do you give if the next stoppage is the scoring of a try??????

As a hypothetical - what would your train of actions be for a deliberate knock down that stopped that try? Is it deliberate offending to have too many on the field?

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I guess the try wouldn't stand for the team with the extra man

I guess it depend whether or not you've alrteady awarded it. "The score at the time of the objection remains unaltered. Sanction: Penalty."

 

[crossref]

1: Indeed: players shout "Ref they have an extra man" Knock of occurs. Stop and count. If the "claim" is correct award the PK where the Scrum would take place. If the "claim" claim is wrong have the scrum.
2: Try stands and PK at the centre of the half way line (where play would restart)

Most of the games I ref i have met the captains before .
Almost all of those captains I trust
If one of them suddenly told me the oppo had 16 people on the field I actually think I'd believe him and blow my whistle.