[Maul] Offside and joining the maul inside goal line, any differences?

cccref


Referees in Italy
Joined
Dec 12, 2016
Messages
76
Post Likes
8
Hello everyone,

here are the laws:

17.4 (a)
The offside line. There are two offside lines parallel to the goal lines, one for each team. Each offside line runs through the hindmost foot of the hindmost player in the maul. If the hindmost foot of the hindmost player is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for the defending team is the goal line.


17.4 (c)
Players joining the maul. Players joining a maul must do so from behind the foot of the hindmost team-mate in the maul. The player may join alongside this player. If the player joins the maul from the opponents’ side, or in front of the hindmost team-mate, the player is offside.


Scenario:
Maul coming inside goal area, ball is still outside it.

A defence player joins the maul NOT from behind the foot of the hindmost team-mate in the maul, neither even alongside that player, BUT still inside his goal area (behing goal line).

17.4 (c) does not mention offside lines, so cai i punish him for joining incorrectly the maul?
My opinion: He's not offside but he joins incorrectly.
 

Taff


Referees in Wales
Joined
Aug 23, 2009
Messages
6,942
Post Likes
383
You cannot have a maul in-goal, so no maul offside lines.
 

Rich_NL

Rugby Expert
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
1,621
Post Likes
499
You cannot have a maul in-goal, so no maul offside lines.

If the ball is not over the goal line, you can certainly have mauling players behind the goal line. As to the original post, I'd certainly ping someone for joining from the side in that case; as you say, the law doesn't mention offside lines.
 

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
16,073
Post Likes
2,346
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
I'm with Taff.
The Maul evaporates as it crosses the goal line.
As long as the defenders are behind the goal line they can join the clump of players that are not a maul from any direction they want.

Having said that, the same must apply to a scrum, so would we let none scrum players add their weight to the back (or side) of a scrum that is past the goal line?
 

ChrisR

Player or Coach
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
3,231
Post Likes
356
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
What determines whether a maul/scrum is in goal? The ball?
 

DocY


Referees in England
Joined
Dec 10, 2015
Messages
1,809
Post Likes
421
What determines whether a maul/scrum is in goal? The ball?
Yes, it's the ball - 17.5. The maul can exist in goal provided the ball isn't over the line yet.

But despite what the lawbook says, I'm not 100% sure you would have to enter from the back foot in goal. It looks like it could well be an oversight.
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,033
Post Likes
1,775
17.4a would suggest surely that the maul may still exist when part of it is in-goal.

so we can only guess at what consitutes the ending of a maul in-goal, and the ball would seem a logical choice (howsoever a ref determines that position in the middle of a large gro0up of players). Alternatively it could be tghe rearmost foot of the attacker's side of the maul... but I doubt many (any?) of us would see that as realistic.

didds
 

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
16,073
Post Likes
2,346
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Yes, it's the ball - 17.5. The maul can exist in goal provided the ball isn't over the line yet.

That just detrmines when the maul ends.

17.1 says the maul can only exist in the field of play.

So the part of the maul that is in-goal does not exist as a maul.
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,033
Post Likes
1,775
That just detrmines when the maul ends.

17.1 says the maul can only exist in the field of play.

So the part of the maul that is in-goal does not exist as a maul.

so in effect then it means a defender can join it at any point no further forward then the goal line?

didds
 

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
16,073
Post Likes
2,346
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
so in effect then it means a defender can join it at any point no further forward then the goal line?

didds

That's my interpretation, but I am open to hearing other arguments.
 

Nickorando


New Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2017
Messages
4
Post Likes
0
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
If the maul no longer exists, then presumably there can be no maul offences - which means a defender could join right next to the ball carrier, collapse the not-a-maul, and hold up the ball? Which would presumably result in a 5m attacking scrum?
Alternatively, a defender standing in goal could presumably tackle the ball carrier and pull him back the other side of the try line? Both obviously not east to do...
 

Rich_NL

Rugby Expert
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
1,621
Post Likes
499
That just detrmines when the maul ends.

17.1 says the maul can only exist in the field of play.

So the part of the maul that is in-goal does not exist as a maul.

So you've no problem with players running into touch to join the not-maul from the opponent's side? ;)
 

ChuckieB

Rugby Expert
Joined
Feb 28, 2017
Messages
1,057
Post Likes
115
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
so in effect then it means a defender can join it at any point no further forward then the goal line?

didds

We all know well the goal line changes so much!

When a maul is moving with such momentum, i.e. to an inevitable breaching of the line, why try to join at all. Use the line. The ball carrier may be easier to attack, i.e. last ditch attempt to dive in to stop bc going to ground with the ball as he goes over goal line. No point being bound in or round the back!

Reality - Hardly likely to save the try, save an error by the attacking team as they attempt to ground the ball!
 

ChuckieB

Rugby Expert
Joined
Feb 28, 2017
Messages
1,057
Post Likes
115
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
So you've no problem with players running into touch to join the not-maul from the opponent's side? ;)

Not at all!

If it ever happened that way, which I doubt, if I were an attacking coach, I would want to know why my team hadn't collapsed the "mass" to ground the ball!
 

DocY


Referees in England
Joined
Dec 10, 2015
Messages
1,809
Post Likes
421
So you've no problem with players running into touch to join the not-maul from the opponent's side? ;)
Sorry Rich, I might be being dull (again) but I've got no idea what you're on about.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
17.1 says the maul can only exist in the field of play.

So the part of the maul that is in-goal does not exist as a maul.
[LAWS]17.5 [FONT=fs_blakeregular]A maul ends successfully when :[/FONT][/LAWS][LAWS]
  • [...]
  • the ball is on or over the goal line.
[/LAWS]
I don't see it as realistic to have part of the body of players constitute a maul whereas the other part doesn't.

We have a gap in the laws.
[LAWS]17.4 (c)[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Players joining the maul. Players joining a maul must do so from behind the foot of the hindmost team-mate in the maul.[/FONT][/LAWS]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]
This should probably say "from behind their offside line", but it doesn't.

[LAWS]17.4 (a) [...] [/LAWS][/FONT]
[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular] If the hindmost foot of the hindmost player is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for the defending team is the goal line.[/FONT][/LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]
On the face of it a player can stand at the goal-line alongside the part of the maul that is in in-goal, but cannot join it at that point

I think this is an oversight. However there may not currently be a consensus on how to rule.[/FONT]
 

ChuckieB

Rugby Expert
Joined
Feb 28, 2017
Messages
1,057
Post Likes
115
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
[LAWS]17.5 [FONT=fs_blakeregular]A maul ends successfully when :[/FONT][/LAWS][LAWS]
  • [...]
  • the ball is on or over the goal line.
[/LAWS]
I don't see it as realistic to have part of the body of players constitute a maul whereas the other part doesn't.

We have a gap in the laws.
[LAWS]17.4 (c)[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Players joining the maul. Players joining a maul must do so from behind the foot of the hindmost team-mate in the maul.[/FONT][/LAWS]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]
This should probably say "from behind their offside line", but it doesn't.

[LAWS]17.4 (a) [...] [/LAWS][/FONT]
[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular] If the hindmost foot of the hindmost player is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for the defending team is the goal line.[/FONT][/LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]
On the face of it a player can stand at the goal-line alongside the part of the maul that is in in-goal, but cannot join it at that point

I think this is an oversight. However there may not currently be a consensus on how to rule.[/FONT]


As we know, the goal line changes so much and In Goal laws are sometimes short of absolute detail as regards dealing with "free for alls", except kicking the ball from hand or other foul play, perhaps.

I feel the goal line offside provision effectively overrides the existence of the hindmost foot provision for joining, once the goal line comes into play. I and have no problem refereeing as such.
 

Rich_NL

Rugby Expert
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
1,621
Post Likes
499
Sorry Rich, I might be being dull (again) but I've got no idea what you're on about.

Phil''s argument is that outside the FoP the maul ceases to exist. If half the maul is in touch with the ball still in play, can players walk around the side in touch and join wherever they want?
 

chbg


Referees in England
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
1,479
Solutions
1
Post Likes
439
Current Referee grade:
Level 7
In the absence of guidance, I sense that a strict interpretation of the Laws (due to OB's gap) is that players should still join from behind the hindmost foot (I do not like the idea that there can be a not-a-maul joined to a not completed maul), whilst they can stand beside it behind the GL. HOWEVER, more importantly, until it occurs in first-class rugby and draws the discussion into the wider public arena, it would be a referee's 'Gotcha' moment if he penalised for it. Would any player (or coach, or 90% of referees / assessors) really expect it to be penalised? Empathy for the game would surpass such detailed knowledge of the Law intricacies.

I'm impressed with the OP's forensic analysis of the Laws, and then asking for clarification. Can we send cccref to take over from the 12 yo proof readers?
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,106
Post Likes
2,131
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Having said that, the same must apply to a scrum, so would we let none scrum players add their weight to the back (or side) of a scrum that is past the goal line?

I wouldn't. Scrum laws dictate how many players can be in a scrum whereas maul laws don't.
 
Top