Offside at scrum for scrum half of side not putting in

[Stu10]

Where is Red 9?

Behind red 8.

 

[chbg]

Agreed, totally legal.

Another variation I see when the scrum half is struggling with the pressure is the locks move the ball away from the put-in side to between the lock and the flanker on the opposite side. (By the feet of the gold flanker with the green cap in your graphic.) Gold SH can step around the back of the gold #8 and play the ball. Red SH cannot follow until the ball is played without going offside.

Red/Gold colour blindness?

 

[belladonna]

Am I missing something or is c below redundant?

19.30 Once play in the scrum begins, the scrum-half of the team not in possession:
a. Takes up a position with both feet behind the ball and close to the scrum but not in the space between the flanker and the number eight or
b. Permanently retires to a point on the offside line either at that team’s hindmost foot, or
c. Permanently retires at least five metres behind the hindmost foot.

 

[crossref]

Am I missing something or is c below redundant?

19.30 Once play in the scrum begins, the scrum-half of the team not in possession:
a. Takes up a position with both feet behind the ball and close to the scrum but not in the space between the flanker and the number eight or
b. Permanently retires to a point on the offside line either at that team’s hindmost foot, or
c. Permanently retires at least five metres behind the hindmost foot.

They can retire to back foot, OR to 5m back, but can't hover between

 

[chbg]

If they go back 5m, they can't come forward again until the scrum is over.

Does that achieve anything? Perhaps our resident coach can inform?

 

[chbg]

They can retire to back foot, OR to 5m back, but can't hover between

Why not? The 5m off-side line has not come into play; they are behind the other one.

 

[crossref]

Why not? The 5m off-side line has not come into play; they are behind the other one.

Read it more carefully (b) says a to a point ON the offside line, not behind it, as is normally the case

(Don't ask me why they decided that )

 

[didds]

If they go back 5m, they can't come forward again until the scrum is over.

Does that achieve anything? Perhaps our resident coach can inform?

Not particularly. I canmt think of any C&O benefit of retiring 5m back to be held there, when you can stay on the line of the rear foot right across the field.
As CR suggests above (c) is there to enforce the on the line of the rear foot, and not "anywhere you feel like behind it".
Though I cant work out why that would be important particularly from an enforcement perspective.

 

[Dickie E]

Reffed a game recently where the non-feeding team put a big, strong-tackling centre into the SH position to stand opposite & intimidate the #10. Not a bad tactic

 

[Stu10]

Am I missing something or is c below redundant?

19.30 Once play in the scrum begins, the scrum-half of the team not in possession:
a. Takes up a position with both feet behind the ball and close to the scrum but not in the space between the flanker and the number eight or
b. Permanently retires to a point on the offside line either at that team’s hindmost foot, or
c. Permanently retires at least five metres behind the hindmost foot.

I agree, why would scrum half ever retire an extra 5 metres when he is allowed to stay level with the back of the scrum?

 

[number11]

Am I missing something or is c below redundant?

19.30 Once play in the scrum begins, the scrum-half of the team not in possession:
a. Takes up a position with both feet behind the ball and close to the scrum but not in the space between the flanker and the number eight or
b. Permanently retires to a point on the offside line either at that team’s hindmost foot, or
c. Permanently retires at least five metres behind the hindmost foot.

I think the laws are simply trying to cover every scenario. "Here are the SH's options (regardless of their tactical merits)."

 

[didds]

Yeah - as CR mentioned first, its to clarify there are three acceptable offside lines, which between them create a "no mans land"/"demilitarized zone" between the rear feet and 5m back where the SHcannot loiter (why-ever that may be; possibly just so it makes checking that easy for the ref ie nobody can be in there at all )

 

[Locke]

It’s not explicitly stated in the law, but my conclusion is that if the not-in-possession scrum half starts at least 5 meters back (per 19.28.b) or retires at least 5 meters back (per 19.30.c, being quoted/discussed in this thread), then they can move horizontally away from the scrum like any other player not in the scrum. My reading of the purpose is that it allows the team not in possession to have another defender out in the line with the backs if they so choose, with the obvious trade off being that there is no pressure on the in-possession scrum half and an initial open attacking lane for #8 or #9 when playing from the back of the scrum.

Thoughts?

 

[didds]

yes.

except that the inline with the rear feet means they dont need to place that defender in the backline, but instead can have almost like a roving, unbound backrower

 

[Locke]

Ah, true. But we don’t see that utilized. The value of being able to pressure the in-possession scrum half and to be an immediate tackler preventing/discouraging 8 or 9 trying to attack up the side of the scrum must be too great.

But I guess lawmakers want to leave teams the option?

 

[didds]

i guess so.
The option though dopes get seen (ive seen it ) at right hand scrums in the oppo 22 with a reasonable blind side - this offers a simple overload generally with a speedy "go right" with 8, 9 and 14 versus at most 7 and 11 .

(red lines are running lins, brown line is the passing/ball lines)

the defensive tactical option is on the heel, the defending 9 moves to the blindside in line with the rear feet thus providing a 7, 9 11 defence against the 8,9,14 attack.



the missed pressure o0f 9 and 9 is pretty limited in these scenarios as any go right will see the ball transferred to a 8s right foot and the 9 standing outside the 8 - defending 9 nowhere near the ball to pressure and its typically an 8 pick up with the 9 moving wider

 

[crossref]

 

[belladonna]

Am I missing something or is c below redundant?

19.30 Once play in the scrum begins, the scrum-half of the team not in possession:
a. Takes up a position with both feet behind the ball and close to the scrum but not in the space between the flanker and the number eight or
b. Permanently retires to a point on the offside line either at that team’s hindmost foot, or
c. Permanently retires at least five metres behind the hindmost foot.

Re-reading the law again, isn't the difference between b and c that In b, the 9 can retire permanently to a point at the hindmost foot (and presumably cannot then move laterally), or under c they can retire to the 5m line and do whatever they like?

 

[crossref]

Re-reading the law again, isn't the difference between b and c that In b, the 9 can retire permanently to a point at the hindmost foot (and presumably cannot then move laterally), or under c they can retire to the 5m line and do whatever they like?

No they can move laterally.
But they have to either ON the line of the back foot or 5m behind it

 

[belladonna]

No they can move laterally.
But they have to either ON the line of the back foot or 5m behind it

So why does it say "retire permanently to a point"?