[Law] Offside at scrum

vimpe22


Referees in Sri Lanka
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
90
Post Likes
0
I wish to discuss and or seek views on the difference in of law 19.28 which says start of play ( is this when you call for a scrum) and and law 29.30 which says scrum begins ( which is when the ball,leaves the hand of the scrum half)

27;. Players remain onside for the duration of the scrum.
28. Prior to the start of play in the scrum, the scrum-half of the team not throwing in the ball
stands:
a. On that team’s side of the middle line next to the opposing scrum-half, or
b. At least five metres behind the hindmost foot of their team’s last player in the scrum and remains there until the completion of the scrum.
29. Once play in the scrum begins, the scrum-half of the team in possession has at least one foot level with or behind the ball.
30. Once play in the scrum begins, the scrum-half of the team not in possession:
a. Takes up a position with both feet behind the ball and close to the scrum but not in
the space between the flanker and the number eight or
b. Permanently retires to a point on the offside line either at that team’s hindmost foot, or
c. Permanently retires at least five metres behind the hindmost foot.
 

Zebra1922


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
688
Post Likes
207
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
I’m not sure what your point is. There is nothing inconsistent or confusing in that wording.
 

Pinky


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
1,517
Post Likes
187
I’m not sure what your point is. There is nothing inconsistent or confusing in that wording.

Except that there is no point in 19.30 c as it is farther back than 19.30 b!
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,952
Post Likes
1,816
Except that there is no point in 19.30 c as it is farther back than 19.30 b!
The scrum half can stay at the hindmost foot under b, but if he moves back to the 5m offside line he can not move forward until the scrum has ended.
 

Pinky


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
1,517
Post Likes
187
The scrum half can stay at the hindmost foot under b, but if he moves back to the 5m offside line he can not move forward until the scrum has ended.

I know one could read it that way, but I am never going to ping a S/H who retires behind the back foot and then wanders about and may just step over the 5m back line when if he comes forward again makes him offside. For me the 5m line only applies if he does no line up beside the scrum at the start.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,952
Post Likes
1,816
I know one could read it that way, but I am never going to ping a S/H who retires behind the back foot and then wanders about and may just step over the 5m back line when if he comes forward again makes him offside. For me the 5m line only applies if he does no line up beside the scrum at the start.
I disagree. If he retires to the 5m offside line he loses any scrum half rights.
 

Pinky


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
1,517
Post Likes
187
So it would be sensible for him to retire only 4.9m to retain the right to come back closer? I am never going to police that!
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,952
Post Likes
1,816
So it would be sensible for him to retire only 4.9m to retain the right to come back closer? I am never going to police that!
Any scrum half who tries to be that "clever" deserves to be deprived of his rights.

Lineout law specifies that a receiver should be 2m from his lineout colleagues and the sanction is a Free Kick. I recently saw a scrum half who kept wandering back to 5m or more get sanctioned (after a couple of warnings). It makes sense - the aim is to clarify who is the scrum half/receiver and not allow him to confuse the issue.

If you get a scrum half who mucks about, warn him.
 

Elpablo73


Referees in England
Joined
May 16, 2016
Messages
74
Post Likes
18
So it would be sensible for him to retire only 4.9m to retain the right to come back closer? I am never going to police that!

What part of the law allows the scrum-half to wander about between the back of the scrum and the offside line 5m back? The Scrum-half has 3 choices follow the attacking scrum-half, go to the back foot of the scrum or go all the way to the 5m offside line. They start to move towards their side's back foot they are down to 2 choices; go past the back foot and they are going back to the 5m offside line and if they don't are liable to be penalised as being off-side.

Unless someone knows differently, this would seem to be what we are supposed to referee.
 

vimpe22


Referees in Sri Lanka
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
90
Post Likes
0
My point was what is the difference in play starts in 28 as against scrum begins in 29 .
 

vimpe22


Referees in Sri Lanka
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
90
Post Likes
0
I don’t think you can retire 4.9 meters. You have to get back 5 m before prior to start of play .

On the other hand as in law . 30. After the scrum begins he could do as scrum begins is defined . 16 The scrum begins when the ball leaves the hands of the scrum-half.

What is the meaning of start of play which is also in law 2.6 . If by this it means there is a stop for a sanction and a scrum is ordered for play to start and before it starts?.

Law 2.16/ Its air pressure at the start of play is 65.71-68.75 kilopascals, 0.67-0.70 kilograms per square centimetre or 9.5-10.0 pounds per square inch.
 

vimpe22


Referees in Sri Lanka
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
90
Post Likes
0
I’m not sure what your point is. There is nothing inconsistent or confusing in that wording.


Point is What is the meaning of start of play which is also in law 2.6

Its air pressure at the start of play is 65.71-68.75 kilopascals, 0.67-0.70 kilograms per square centimetre or 9.5-10.0 pounds per square inch.


18.6 The scrum begins when the ball leaves the hands of the scrum-half.

If we go by law 2.6 then there is a stop for an infringement which calls for a scrum. Start of play possibly means before the process of scrum as against scrum begins ?
 

vimpe22


Referees in Sri Lanka
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
90
Post Likes
0
So it would be sensible for him to retire only 4.9m to retain the right to come back closer? I am never going to police that!
I don’t think you can retire 4.9 meters. You have to get back 5 m prior to start of play .

On the other hand as in law . 30. After the scrum begins he could do as scrum begins is defined . 16 The scrum begins when the ball leaves the hands of the scrum-half.

What is the meaning of start of play which is also in law 2.6 . If by this it means there is a stop for a sanction and a scrum is ordered for play to start and before it starts?.

Law 2.16/ Its air pressure at the start of play is 65.71-68.75 kilopascals, 0.67-0.70 kilograms per square centimetre or 9.5-10.0 pounds per square inch.
 

Pinky


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
1,517
Post Likes
187
I don’t think you can retire 4.9 meters. You have to get back 5 m prior to start of play .

On the other hand as in law . 30. After the scrum begins he could do as scrum begins is defined . 16 The scrum begins when the ball leaves the hands of the scrum-half.

What is the meaning of start of play which is also in law 2.6 . If by this it means there is a stop for a sanction and a scrum is ordered for play to start and before it starts?.

Law 2.16/ Its air pressure at the start of play is 65.71-68.75 kilopascals, 0.67-0.70 kilograms per square centimetre or 9.5-10.0 pounds per square inch.

Before the ball is put in the scrum the non-putting in scrum half has to stand beside the putting in scrum half or he has to retire 5m behind the scrum (like all the other backs)

After the ball is put in, he has three options (although I don't see what 3 is about)
1 he can follow the other s/h and as long as he stays on that side of and close to the scrum his offside line is both feet behind the ball.

2 If he wants to move away from the scrum or round the other side his offside line becomes the back foot of his pack in the scrum.

3 For some reason he can also retire 5m from the scrum and stay there. Why is he bound to stay there when his offside line is back foot?
 

Rich_NL

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
1,488
Post Likes
411
My point was what is the difference in play starts in 28 as against scrum begins in 29 .

The ball is dead, and the forwards assemble. Play starts as the referee calls "crouch". The scrum begins when the ball is fed in.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
19,734
Post Likes
2,248
In practice I don't think I have ever seen a 9 retire back to 5m line ...

To the back foot, often, this allows them to cover both sides of the scrum. But I can't see why they'd really want to drop back to 5m ?
 

Jz558


ELRA/Club Referee
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Messages
314
Post Likes
86
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Apart from not being allowed in the pocket between flanker and No8 I don't think I've ever really thought deeply about where the defending scrum-half may or may not stand during a scrum. I've certainly never been asked for clarity on the subject. Last week this thread pops up and on Sunday morning I was asked how I would interpret the law by a Coach before kick-off. The rugby world occasionally moves in mysterious ways.
 
Top