[Line out] Offside by QTI

[Arabcheif]

I'm not quite sure I'm following this. Is there a Law ref, guidance, clarification on the WR site to state this. I would say (without any other input), that the tackler was offside from the throw (as this creates the offside line?). That seems logical to me. But like I said, if there somewhere on WR that tells me otherwise then, fair play.

 

[crossref]

a QTI doesn't create an offside line.
Indeed generally speaking it acts as the opposite, being a pass it puts the oppo onside (assuming they weren't previously advancing when they shouldn't or caught by 10m law etc)

 

[Arabcheif]

See, this I don't get. The ball's dead. There's no offside when the balls dead I get this. A QTI is just a quick method of taking a lineout. Therefore surely normal offside LO Laws should still apply. If the ball doesn't go dead then yes we're in open play and the BC can be tackled (subject to normal caveats behind kicker, 10m, passed the ball etc). At the restart QTI, there not for me, in an onside position. So they need to keep retiring until they are onside. For me this is once the BC passes them or they were behind the MoT (closer to their Dead Ball Line).

 

[didds]

To a alrge degree this is unintended consequences at play.

I agree that the ball is dead. Play has finished. Offsides etc no longer exist.

In the bad old days when QTIs hardly ever happened and here quite strict wrt use (must be straight etc etc) they rarely happened, and good old fashioned lineouts occurred where everyone took their tim to set up two oppising lines of forwards and off we'd go. So theer was no advanatge to being offside in general play immediately before the ball went to wouch and became dead. You just stood and waited for the game to restart.

As the game has speeded up , and the QTI laws changed to permit more flexibility in theoir delivery and become in effect a pass from touch (nopt a bad thing in itself lest I be misunderstood), it has now created the scenario wherby being offside froim the previous play CAN have a retained adavantage that is far more likely to be available today. But the ofside laws havent kept up with that - if of course they even should.

What we have now is what was excellently termed here by some sage "zombie ball". The ball is dead - but play in effect isn't.

I confess I have no easy solution. BUt a definitive and clear inclusion of one way or another in the laws woiuld help everybody here I am sure whether we all perosnally agree with whatever that may be.

didds

 

[Dickie E]

the team taking the QTI have some significant advantage. They don't have to throw the ball straight & they don't have to wait for 2+2 so therefore bypass the lineout contest. The downside is that opponents can compete for the the throw. Seems fair & equitable to me.

 

[Arabcheif]

Still not sure I get it. Is there a Law ref for this at all. Like I said, a QTI just seems like a lineout, taken quickly. Therefore other than the stated caveats regarding he throw etc. Offsides should still be applied - eg, you need to be at least on the right side of the MoT.

 

[Flish]

Still not sure I get it. Is there a Law ref for this at all. Like I said, a QTI just seems like a lineout, taken quickly. Therefore other than the stated caveats regarding he throw etc. Offsides should still be applied - eg, you need to be at least on the right side of the MoT.

It's in the line out and quick throw section, a 'line out' is very specifically defined including the moment it's formed and all else (including offside lines) from there on, quick throw has it's own section and is a separate thing, no mention of offside lines, and only really details where you can thrown from and what happens if you take it back into the 22

 

[Arabcheif]

Ok so slightly different. I get tackled on the attacking 5m. I lose the ball in the process. The new BC runs 50m gets tackled. Ruck forms, ball comes out and passed away. I'm still trundling back from being tackled (I'm fat, slow and unfit btw). As we're now in open play I'm not offside and can tackle? My instinct is no. But it's the same kind of situation as in the OP. The ruck has ended/QTI is taken - open play no offsides.

 

[crossref]

A ruck creates offside lines. We ensure that 'lazy runners' like you don't benefit from their laziness (never onside from the ruck is the normal call when you are penalised)

A QTI does not create offside lines, it's open play.

In open play if our opponents who have the ball you are not offside

 

[OB..]

A QTI does not create offside lines, it's open play.

[LAWS]Open play: The period after a kick-off, restart kick, free-kick, penalty or set piece and before the next phase, or the period between phases of play, excluding when the ball is dead.[/LAWS]
The ball is dead for a QTI.

 

[Pinky]

In open play if our opponents who have the ball you are not offside

Mostly true, but there are some exceptions such as the 10m law.

 

[Pinky]

A QTI does not mean open play unless all the requirements have been met - not touched by someone else, taken from behind the LOT, thrown more than 5m infield, and thrown straight across the pitch or back towards the throwing team's goal line. Then it is open play, assuming there aren't any remaining offside players!

 

[crossref]

Mostly true, but there are some exceptions such as the 10m law.

Yes. ...

 

[crossref]

[LAWS]Open play: The period after a kick-off, restart kick, free-kick, penalty or set piece and before the next phase, or the period between phases of play, excluding when the ball is dead.[/LAWS]
The ball is dead for a QTI.

But it isn't really, is it. Its the same as a PK : one team is free to play it (in the prescribed way) . Its the famous zombie ball

 

[Arabcheif]

But it isn't really, is it. Its the same as a PK : one team is free to play it (in the prescribed way) . Its the famous zombie ball

But in the PK quick tap, the ball is live. A player who is back 10m can come forward to meet the BC and can tackle as soon as he gets there. The retiring player can engage when he gets 10m from the PK mark. So surely the QTI is a quickly taken set piece and as such has it's own offside line ie the mark of touch.

Yes once the ball is dead there is no offside from the kick. But then we get an offside line from the resultant set play... the QTI. I suggest that a QTI is a restart set play when the ball goes dead. Not open play.

 

[crossref]

No

The PK and the QTI have similarities in that the ball is half dead. The whistle has gone but one team is free to play the ball immediately, while the other isn't . Its both live and dead (zombie ball)

However in other respects is different
A PK does create an offside line, the oppo have to be 10m back, but a QTI doesn't create an offside line for either team

 

[Arabcheif]

At Pk as soon as the ball is tapped a player who was back 10 can come forward though. So he/she can tackle the BC/intercept a pass (if he's/she's fast enough)/charge down a kick. But he/she needs to retire back 10m first. But that's not offside, thats not back 10.

I get that there's no conventional "must be back 10m" from the MoT at QTI, but at I'd blow up for offside if a retiring player tackled a BC in this occurrence. It would to me penalising good attacking pressure from the kicking team, to get up and tackle the catcher.

 

[crossref]

.

I get that there's no conventional "must be back 10m" from the MoT at QTI, but at I'd blow up for offside if a retiring player tackled a BC in this occurrence. It would to me penalising good attacking pressure from the kicking team, to get up and tackle the catcher.

So think you would be wrong .. but perhaps spell out the scenario you have in mind ?

 

[Arabcheif]

@CR - not sure I follow what scenario you're asking for.
The scenario in the OP. There good attacking pressure. Deep in blue territory so the player whos made the tackle (inside red 22m) has just sprinted 40m min and made a great tackle to bundle the catcher into touch. We're rewarding poor/lazy defending by red by allowing the tackle from the player still retiring.

I get the the other usual stuff doesn't apply, gap, numbers matching, receiver and hooker in the 5m. But surely for parity offside would still apply. I don't see a Law/definition/clarification to say this is not the case. If someone can point me in the direction of this, then I'll accept it.

 

[crossref]

@CR - not sure I follow what scenario you're asking for.
The scenario in the OP..

Blue kick deep from their own half, red 10 gathers the ball just inside his own 22 and gets bundled into touch by blue 6. As the teams are running back, blue 6 takes the QTI 2m back from the LOT to blue 12 - who immediately gets pounced on by a still-retreating red 5.

i find that one hard to imagine :

1 how did blue 6 get there (50m sprint) so fast - was he actually behind the kicker ? or was he offside himself?

2 but putting that aside: no - Red 5 should not be penalised. The QTI does not create an offside line, you are allowed to take up position in front of a QTI (and 5m in) in order to defend it