[Law] Offside or no offside - Ospreys v SF

[winchesterref]

Any thoughts on Matt Carley's try award for SF after the kick ahead?

 

[winchesterref]

 

[Camquin]

I think he is not clearly less than 10 metres from where he kick is fielded.
So he can be put onside by the first pass.

The question remains is he loitering.
He does not make any real effort to retreat, but I do not believe he moves forward until after the pass.
So on balance I think he is just OK.
But I think the ref could have sold the other decision.

 

[Drift]

He's outside the 10, not moving forward. The ball carrier then runs 5m (not the law book doesn't state which direction this 5m needs to be) and the ball is passed, so therefore he is put onside even though none of the chasing players run past him. Play on, try stands.

 

[Dickie E]

The question remains is he loitering.

provided he is outside 10 metres and isn't moving forward he is entitled to loiter.

 

[ChuckieB]

Well he was retreating, in a fashion (1 step back you will see although after the ball is caught), and at the time the opponent played the ball it was evident there was 10m gap

View attachment 3550

To correct Drift & camquin, under the 10 metre law you cannot be placed onside by he actions of an opponent, only the actions of your own side.

 

[Balones]

The 10M line goes across the pitch. It looked very close to me. Under such circumstances the action of retreating is not relevant. If you are within 10M is doesn't matter if you are retreating.

 

[DocY]

provided he is outside 10 metres and isn't moving forward he is entitled to loiter.

Really? I always thought the point of the loitering law was that you were never entitled to loiter and could always be penalised for it.

 

[Dickie E]

Really? I always thought the point of the loitering law was that you were never entitled to loiter and could always be penalised for it.

which one is the loitering law?

A player who remains offside and interferes with play may be guilty of loitering. If you are not offside, you can't be guilty of loitering

 

[The Fat]

Well he was retreating, in a fashion (1 step back you will see although after the ball is caught), and at the time the opponent played the ball it was evident there was 10m gap

View attachment 3550

To correct Drift & camquin, under the 10 metre law you cannot be placed onside by he actions of an opponent, only the actions of your own side.

To be fair to Drift, I think he is saying that the white player was outside the 10m and therefore the 10m Law doesn't apply in this case

 

[Pegleg]

10 mtr law is not relevant. Try is fine.

 

[DocY]

which one is the loitering law?

A player who remains offside and interferes with play may be guilty of loitering. If you are not offside, you can't be guilty of loitering

11.9 - A player who remains in an offside position is loitering. A loiterer who prevents the opposing team from playing the ball as they wish is taking part in the game, and is penalised. The referee makes sure that the loiterer does not benefit from being put onside by the opposing team's actions

(my emphasis)

I can't see how that ever entitles you to loiter.

 

[Drift]

To be fair to Drift, I think he is saying that the white player was outside the 10m and therefore the 10m Law doesn't apply in this case

Correct. He's outside of that zone so therefore he is "offside in general play" but the pass puts him onside.

 

[ChuckieB]

To be fair to Drift, I think he is saying that the white player was outside the 10m and therefore the 10m Law doesn't apply in this case

Not looking to undermine. I just had it as him suggesting "outside the 10" as the receiver outside the 10m line, not 10 metres distance (on reflection not relevant in itself). The 2nd statement on its own, not wrong in itself, is applicable in general play, and thus not relevant either as regards a kick head situation, which this is, when the 10 law specifically applies.

Ah, a debate around a possible difference in interpretation around uncertain wording.

Where have I come across that before?.......Now let me think?

 

[Dickie E]

11.9 - A player who remains in an offside position is loitering. A loiterer who prevents the opposing team from playing the ball as they wish is taking part in the game, and is penalised. The referee makes sure that the loiterer does not benefit from being put onside by the opposing team's actions

(my emphasis)

I can't see how that ever entitles you to loiter.

What the offside player can't do is defined here:

[LAWS](b) Offside and interfering with play. A player who is offside must not take part in the game. This means the player must not play the ball or obstruct an opponent.[/LAWS]

The player in question did neither of those 2 things.

 

[ChuckieB]

You can initially consider him to be offside, which he undoubtedly is, per the laws you are stating.

However, once the ball is kicked, the general play law ceases to take precedent, and the 10m laws kicks in (excuse the pun). No longer general play.

He remains offside but is not considered active per the 10m law if he is outside 10m distance. Inside 10m distance he is both offside and also active.

He would remain offside in both cases unless the specific provisions to put him onside within the 10m law are met. The specific provisions do not include any actions by the opponent while he is moving away so cannot be relevant in this instance.

11.5 allows himself to play himself onside if he is within 10 and retreats outside 10 and can then come back! If he is made onside before then by his own payers then fine.

Which might perhaps give me an understanding why I see refs on TV indicating to such offside players, outside 10m to start with, to firstly hold their forward run as they are generally not visibly moving back to start with. (i.e. ball goes over the head, my first instinct is to turn and chase and not to move back first, turn and then chase - no visible retreat).

Get my Drift? sorry. (new pun!)

If you have this inference it doesn't tamp out loitering as such. As with anything it just makes you more at risk of being caught.

 

[Pegleg]

11.9 - A player who remains in an offside position is loitering. A loiterer who prevents the opposing team from playing the ball as they wish is taking part in the game, and is penalised. The referee makes sure that the loiterer does not benefit from being put onside by the opposing team's actions

(my emphasis)

I can't see how that ever entitles you to loiter.

But he's only liable to penalty if he moves towards the ball / player. You have to read the law in context and not "cherry pick" clauses.

"11.1
(a) A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three
things:
• Interferes with play or, He does not.
• Moves forward, towards the ball or He does not.
• Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4). He is not.
A player who is in an offside position is not automatically penalised.
A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside.
A player can be offside in the in-goal.
(b) Offside and interfering with play. A player who is offside must not take part in the game.
This means the player must not play the ball or obstruct an opponent.
(c) Offside and moving forward. When a team-mate of an offside player has kicked ahead,
the offside player must not move towards opponents who are waiting to play the ball, or
move towards the place where the ball lands, until the player has been put onside. He does not.
Sanction: When a player is penalised for being offside in general play, the opposing team"


Quite clear.

 

[DocY]

But he's only liable to penalty if he moves towards the ball / player. You have to read the law in context and not "cherry pick" clauses.

"11.1
(a) A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three
things:
• Interferes with play or, He does not.
• Moves forward, towards the ball or He does not.
• Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4). He is not.
A player who is in an offside position is not automatically penalised.
A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside.
A player can be offside in the in-goal.
(b) Offside and interfering with play. A player who is offside must not take part in the game.
This means the player must not play the ball or obstruct an opponent.
(c) Offside and moving forward. When a team-mate of an offside player has kicked ahead,
the offside player must not move towards opponents who are waiting to play the ball, or
move towards the place where the ball lands, until the player has been put onside. He does not.
Sanction: When a player is penalised for being offside in general play, the opposing team"


Quite clear.

I'm not referring to the incident in question - just the phrase "he's entitled to loiter", which I don't think is the case - if he's in an on side position, he's not loitering and if he's in an offside position, he's not entitled to loiter.

If you're in an offside position and not retreating, you're going to run the risk of being penalised.

 

[ChuckieB]

You can initially consider him to be offside, which he undoubtedly is, per the laws you are stating.

However, once the ball is kicked, the general play law ceases to take precedent, and the 10m laws kicks in (excuse the pun). No longer general play.

He remains offside but is not considered active per the 10m law if he is outside 10m distance. Inside 10m distance he is both offside and also active.

He would remain offside in both cases unless the specific provisions to put him onside within the 10m law are met. The specific provisions do not include any actions by the opponent while he is moving away so cannot be relevant in this instance.

11.5 allows himself to play himself onside if he is within 10 and retreats outside 10 and can then come back! If he is made onside before then by his own payers then fine.

Which might perhaps give me an understanding why I see refs on TV indicating to such offside players, outside 10m to start with, to firstly hold their forward run as they are generally not visibly moving back to start with. (i.e. ball goes over the head, my first instinct is to turn and chase and not to move back first, turn and then chase - no visible retreat).

Get my Drift? sorry. (new pun!)

If you have this inference it doesn't tamp out loitering as such. As with anything it just makes you more at risk of being caught.

My comment 11.5 was garbage! After a reread, as far as I am concerned he is still offside once he retires the 10 metres! That then takes him back into the realms of general play provisions in which case it is the pass, i.e. the action of the opponent that can then play him onside!

Try is thus still permitted despite my erroneous initial thoughts as to why.

 

[ChuckieB]

Correct. He's outside of that zone so therefore he is "offside in general play" but the pass puts him onside.

Having worked the whole thing through, I now see your "he is outside the 10". I am in 100% agreement.

If one had seen him as inside 10m it would have been a totally different outcome. It was 10m, there or thereabouts, that has served to confuse.