Offside when ruck is over, Maoris V Ireland ?

Blindside

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More of a coach than a ref but would like some clarity. Maori All Blacks V Ireland a legal ruck was completed when TJ Perenara (9) lifted the ball and stood up, in the act of passing his arm was pulled by an Irish player was legally part of the original ruck, is he then offside because he has not come from the hindmost foot, the debate over the legality occurred on the field and amongst the commentator where the general consensus was it should have been blown?

Earlier in the game ball emerges from a ruck to the back at the side, about 2ft away from ruck on the Maori side, Irish rugby player dives on the ball from an onside position, in full view of the ref, I was under the impression that diving on the ball that emerges from and is in close proximity to the ruck is an infringement?

I did look for videos of games to reference but could not find them as I would have given the exact times.
 

Decorily

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More of a coach than a ref but would like some clarity. Maori All Blacks V Ireland a legal ruck was completed when TJ Perenara (9) lifted the ball and stood up, in the act of passing his arm was pulled by an Irish player was legally part of the original ruck, is he then offside because he has not come from the hindmost foot, the debate over the legality occurred on the field and amongst the commentator where the general consensus was it should have been blown?

Earlier in the game ball emerges from a ruck to the back at the side, about 2ft away from ruck on the Maori side, Irish rugby player dives on the ball from an onside position, in full view of the ref, I was under the impression that diving on the ball that emerges from and is in close proximity to the ruck is an infringement?

I did look for videos of games to reference but could not find them as I would have given the exact times.

In terms of the player who is part of the ruck 'playing the 9' I think it's more convention rather than law that has had this pinged in the past. Wayne Barnes certainly allowed it in a recent game (not sure which game Leinster v x)

Diving on a ball emerging from a ruck (still within 1m) is illegal and was a 'one to watch ' last season.
 

chbg


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Possibly Law 15.15:
Players on the ground must attempt to move away from the ball and must not play the ball in the ruck or as it emerges.
If only because when are players in the modern ruck ever not on the ground? Perhaps that was why WB allowed it?
 

Decorily

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Nope...not relating to players on ground.
 

Blindside

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So a player that is part of a ruck and on his feet can play the 9 when the ball is lifted?
In terms of the player who is part of the ruck 'playing the 9' I think it's more convention rather than law that has had this pinged in the past. Wayne Barnes certainly allowed it in a recent game (not sure which game Leinster v x)

Diving on a ball emerging from a ruck (still within 1m) is illegal and was a 'one to watch ' last season.
To me it looked fine in that
In terms of the player who is part of the ruck 'playing the 9' I think it's more convention rather than law that has had this pinged in the past. Wayne Barnes certainly allowed it in a recent game (not sure which game Leinster v x)

Diving on a ball emerging from a ruck (still within 1m) is illegal and was a 'one to watch ' last season.
Yes, I thought the ball emergence within a metre was a clear penalty and was shocked it was ignored.

To me, Perenara had a window of opportunity to clear the ball but did not take it, and the Irish player on his feet who was part of the ruck had a right to play him, had he ploughed the 9 out as he was picking up I feel it would have been penalised. I suppose what I'm asking is someone who is legally part of a ruck cannot come from an offside position because he was never offside, so when the ruck is over he has not gained benefit from being offside (as he was not) in the way a player not part of a ruck in front of the hindmost foot was. That is he does not have to come from behind the hindmost foot because he was legally part of the ruck and his offside line is the ball ??
 

buff


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Clarification 3 from 2021 requires that "If a player is fully bound and they have moved beyond the offside line then they must return to be behind the hindmost foot before being able to be involved in play, once the ball is out or is played from the ruck."
This is the clarification dealing with the skewed caterpillar on defense to bring defenders closer to the box kicker.
I have seen this ignored in TV rugby several times.
I haven't seen the game in question. Does the above fit the situation in #1?
 

Stu10

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Clarification 3 from 2021 requires that "If a player is fully bound and they have moved beyond the offside line then they must return to be behind the hindmost foot before being able to be involved in play, once the ball is out or is played from the ruck."
This is the clarification dealing with the skewed caterpillar on defense to bring defenders closer to the box kicker.
I have seen this ignored in TV rugby several times.
I haven't seen the game in question. Does the above fit the situation in #1?

Thanks for sharing this... I have never seen it penalised, and continue to see a player in the ruck on his feet grab the scrum-half's arm after lifting the ball without being penalised... I thought this was allowed, but the clarification clearly says it is not allowed.

However, does this align with the laws?

Law 15.18
The ruck ends and play continues when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball in the ruck is on or over the goal line.


When the scrum-half has picked up the ball then the ruck has ended, therefore it is open play... is Law 10.9 application here with regard to the clarification?

Law 10
Retiring from a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout
9. A player who is offside at a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout remains offside, even after the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended.
 

Blindside

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That is a very clear post on highlighting the actual uncertainty in my mind regarding the decision taken when Perenara's pass was disrupted by a player that was legally part of the ruck after the ruck was over. I fear the clarity of any answer may be in the greyzone though.
 

Jarrod Burton


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I'm not sure if I'm correct here but it seems that elite referees are allowing this behaviour when the attacking team are playing negatively and going off their feet. If a defending player is on their feet at the top of the ruck they seem to get more leeway in having a crack at the 9's hands, especially if the attacking team haven't made a reasonable effort to stay on their feet. It could be a reasonable way to encourage players to stay on their feet at that level - beyond actually using the whistle and applying the laws as written.
 

didds

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there's some equity there - but now they are in the territory of allowing two wrongs to almost make a right.
 

Stu10

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I'm not sure if I'm correct here but it seems that elite referees are allowing this behaviour when the attacking team are playing negatively and going off their feet. If a defending player is on their feet at the top of the ruck they seem to get more leeway in having a crack at the 9's hands, especially if the attacking team haven't made a reasonable effort to stay on their feet. It could be a reasonable way to encourage players to stay on their feet at that level - beyond actually using the whistle and applying the laws as written.
I don't buy into this explanation, and agree with @didds that we cannot apply a "two wrongs make a right" philosophy. I honestly think this is an example of too many laws and complications, and that law 10.9 has been "forgotten" with regards to the ruck and maul, and therefore players in the ruck/maul are being allowed to play the SH (typically grabbing his arm when attempting to pass) after the ball is out and the ruck/maul is over.

While pondering law 10.9, I am left wondering how it would be applied to a scrum. Where is the offside line for the players bound in a scrum? After the ball is out, is a flanker allowed to break from the scrum and move forwards, or is he offside? I believe this action is allowed, but I can't see clarification in the laws.
 

buff


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10.9 doesn't apply to players in a ruck/maul/scrum because they are not offside, unless we accept that Clarification 3/2021 above makes 10.9 apply to them. It applies to players offside at a ruck/maul/scrum, players who have crept ahead of the relevant offside line and forces them to retire or be made onside by the opposition.
There is no offside line for players in a scrum. They are in the scrum. The offside lines at ruck/maul/scrum apply to players who are not participants so it follows that a flanker who was legally bound in a scrum that has ended would not have to return to an offside line that didn't apply to him.
 

chbg


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Agreed, but he may be offside of subsequent play (e.g. a kick), hence he does not have unfettered licence to move forward and have material affect on the game.
 

Jarrod Burton


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I don't buy into this explanation, and agree with @didds that we cannot apply a "two wrongs make a right" philosophy. I honestly think this is an example of too many laws and complications, and that law 10.9 has been "forgotten" with regards to the ruck and maul, and therefore players in the ruck/maul are being allowed to play the SH (typically grabbing his arm when attempting to pass) after the ball is out and the ruck/maul is over.

While pondering law 10.9, I am left wondering how it would be applied to a scrum. Where is the offside line for the players bound in a scrum? After the ball is out, is a flanker allowed to break from the scrum and move forwards, or is he offside? I believe this action is allowed, but I can't see clarification in the laws.
Whoever said that professional level rugby was "right"? They massage law interpretation all the time to ensure that the game appears to be more free flowing at that level in the pursuit of TV viewership and the almighty dollar.
 

buff


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Agreed, but he may be offside of subsequent play (e.g. a kick), hence he does not have unfettered licence to move forward and have material affect on the game.
True, but that is not what we are talking about.
 

Stu10

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10.9 doesn't apply to players in a ruck/maul/scrum because they are not offside, unless we accept that Clarification 3/2021 above makes 10.9 apply to them. It applies to players offside at a ruck/maul/scrum, players who have crept ahead of the relevant offside line and forces them to retire or be made onside by the opposition.
There is no offside line for players in a scrum. They are in the scrum. The offside lines at ruck/maul/scrum apply to players who are not participants so it follows that a flanker who was legally bound in a scrum that has ended would not have to return to an offside line that didn't apply to him.

Before this discussion I would completely agree with you that 10.9 does not apply to players in a ruck (and I would allow a player (on his feet) from a ruck or maul to tackle the 9 after lifting the ball out), but, if I'm reading it correctly, Clarification 3/2021 says otherwise.

Clarification 3/2021 is clearly describing a player "fully bound" in a ruck:

"If a player is fully bound and they have moved beyond the offside line then they must return to be behind the hindmost foot before being able to be involved in play, once the ball is out or is played from the ruck."

Most, if not all, of you folks are more experienced refs than me... were you already aware of Clarification 3/2021 (I was aware of 3/2021 to manage the defensive ruck caterpillar, but I had not thought beyond that aspect)? How do you referee this situation? How will you referee it going forward, when a player in the maul/ruck plays the SH after he clears the ball?
 

didds

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That must be the most broken "law"/interpretation in the book. Leaving aside the scragging of the s/half, i doubt anybody bound onto a ruck maul actually retreats to then run towards the oppo centres etc when the ball is passed away.
 

buff


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That must be the most broken "law"/interpretation in the book. Leaving aside the scragging of the s/half, i doubt anybody bound onto a ruck maul actually retreats to then run towards the oppo centres etc when the ball is passed away.
Had they just waited a bit before acting players and coaches would likely have sorted it out on their own, and I don't mean with foul play.
 
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