[Law] Penalise or play on

[Christy]

Red v white
Red kick ball down field and close to touch line ( stays in field of play )
White chase towards ball & gets there 1st , but slips & falls to floor .
Ball still in field & white is clearly half in touch & half in field of play .
Just as red gets closer to ball , white player still on floor manages to kick ball to his team mate ( red has not been kicked / harmed and white kicks ball before red actually gets to ball , all clean stuff ).
White team mate gathers ball and manages to score a try .

Do we award try .
Is ball in touch , because player who kicked ball was lying on touch line , when he kicked.
Or do we award penalty to red , for white player , playing the ball on the floor .

For me , its a try .
As white player can be out side field of play & kick ball that is in field.
And white player has not made ball unaproachable for red ,
He simply got there 1st , by couple seconds & kicked immediately .

Or am i wrong .
Look forward to views

 

[SimonSmith]

Touch. He's in possession of the ball, in touch. What other choice is there?

 

[Christy]

Touch. He's in possession of the ball, in touch. What other choice is there?

Sorry , maybe i not clear in post
, the ball remained in field of play .
The white player has not caught ball & gone into touch .
The white player is him self in touch , & then he has kicked the ball.

Similar to you can be out side goal line of touch
And score a try , by touching down ward pressure on ball which is in , in goal
Providing you dont pick it up

 

[Pegleg]

Red v white
Red kick ball down field and close to touch line ( stays in field of play )
White chase towards ball & gets there 1st , but slips & falls to floor .
Ball still in field & white is clearly half in touch & half in field of play .
Just as red gets closer to ball , white player still on floor manages to kick ball to his team mate ( red has not been kicked / harmed and white kicks ball before red actually gets to ball , all clean stuff ).
White team mate gathers ball and manages to score a try .

The scenario does not read Correctly. Have you mixed up your colours? Or did white regather and rung all the way down the other end of the field?

The question stands on the question can a player on the ground play the ball. Nothing else matters.

 

[Christy]

The scenario does not read Correctly. Have you mixed up your colours? Or did white regather and rung all the way down the other end of the field?

The question stands on the question can a player on the ground play the ball. Nothing else matters.

Yes , correct , white get possesion of ball , from white team mate who whilst on floor lying on touch line , then for the 1st time touches ball by kicking same .
Im looking for how other refs like your self , would deal with situation

 

[Pegleg]

I'd like to be clearer on the scenario. A player on the floor is out of the game. - For me. WE then move on to materiality matters. Hence the ned to be clear on the scenario.

 

[Pegleg]

Touch. He's in possession of the ball, in touch. What other choice is there?

The law book does not agree.

Law 19 definitions:


"A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not
crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space
rising immediately above the touchline."

 

[Decorily]

For me, as per Peglegs clarification, no touch.

Then player on ground plays ball to team mate who has a scoring opportunity..........penalty offence complete with materiality!

 

[Christy]

For me, as per Peglegs clarification, no touch.

Then player on ground plays ball to team mate who has a scoring opportunity..........penalty offence complete with materiality!

Ok , i can agree with same .
But the white player has gone to ground to gather a loose ball ( as he is allowed to )
We can all agree that as he is in touch , providing he doesnt pick up ball ,,he can kick or knock the ball ( other wise throw in will be out come )
So my law enquiring question ,,is why are we penalizing him for kicking ball to his team mate .?

 

[chbg]

He is only penalizable if:

1. His team-mate is offside (which is possible if they are covering back for a ball kicked ahead by Red, which seems to be your scenario).

2. You do not believe that a player on the ground can play the ball - this would be contrary to the Law 14 Definition that "The game is to be played by players on their feet". This is material if it prevents the opposition from legitimately playing the ball, not if it results in an eventual Try to White, after Red have opportunities to stop them (Decorily). But Law 14a allows a player with the ball on the ground to pass it immediately - in this context, for me, a kick (in any direction) can be construed as a 'pass'.

But it is NOT touch - Law 19 definitions as given by Pegleg.

 

[Camquin]

Did he play the ball im-med-iate-ly?
Hyphens to indicate the pace I try to say it to myself.
From the description he probably has.

So we have a sort of fly hack and not a pass.
So not permitted by the letter of the law, but in my mind it meets the spirit.
Your mileage may vary.

Good point form chbg, his team mate has to be behind the kick or he is offside.

 

[OB..]

We have a clash between laws 14 and 19 ie between "cannot play the ball when on the ground" and "can kick the ball when in touch if the ball has not crossed the plane of touch".

Being in touch is irrelevant here. He is on the ground and therefore cannot play the ball whether or not he is in touch. The Law 19 provision only applies to a player who is entitled to play the ball. IMHO that view makes sense of both laws. For me it does not make sense to argue that Law 19 provides an exception to Law 14. Why should he be allowed to do something when in touch that he cannot do in the field of play?!

 

[Decorily]

Ok , i can agree with same .
But the white player has gone to ground to gather a loose ball ( as he is allowed t

......why are we penalizing him for kicking ball to his team mate .?

OK...I was picturing the player who kicked the ball being on the ground as a result of slipping and falling and hacking at the ball. Now it seems he intentionally went to ground to gather.

Two different scenarios in my book!!

 

[Christy]

OK...I was picturing the player who kicked the ball being on the ground as a result of slipping and falling and hacking at the ball. Now it seems he intentionally went to ground to gather.

Hi ,,no red kicked ball & chased his own kick .
White team goes & chases same ball.
I suppose whether he slipped or gone to ground deliberately mounts to the same laws being implied , regardless .
A player who has gone to ground to gather a ball , must act immediately , or face possible out come of being penalised for not allowing opposition their intitlement to same ball.
( where / if a tackle has taken place , and tackler stays on floor or the tackled player stays on floor & to keep it simple from an onside position behind ball etc ,,if they re gather a loose ball whilst still on floor , i would agree , penalty for playing the ball whilst still on floor )
My above original posted question is a different scenario with a different law to abide by ...being that as long as he doesnt deliberately lie on ball or make it unplayable etc ,,that ( i thought ) he would be allowed to pick up ball ( providing not in touch ) &run with it ,,pop it to team mate ,,so surely he can kick it

 

[Pegleg]

You are changing the scenario. That does not help people give an answer.

Touch is not important. Since a player in touch can kick a ball. what he can't do it "gather " it or it becomes in touch.

I'm in the "on the floor, out of the game" camp.


That said I'd judge it as I see it. Assuming the player went to ground to gather the ball (legal) and lets' say the ball bobbles away and he immediately puts a foot out and kicks the ball I'd play on. It's not really different to going to ground gathering the ball and flicking a pass up to the supporting player. HOWEVER, if the act was not immediate then He's playing the ball off his feet and I'm pinging him.

If he slipped and fell I'd treat it the same as the above paragraph.

 

[SimonSmith]

The law book does not agree.

Law 19 definitions:


"A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not
crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space
rising immediately above the touchline."

If the initial description had been clearer, I'd have worded differently

 

[DocY]

I think I'd need to see the incident. If he'd gone to ground and kicked the ball in a soccer-esque sliding tackle type thing, then play on. If he was already on the ground, or he'd gone to ground to collect the ball, but obviously missed and managed to kick it as it bounced towards him, I'd penalise. Then there is a large grey area in between those two.

 

[ChrisR]

"Play on!".