[Law] Penalties and keeping track of them

[Shelflife]

The last few games Ive done , ive noticed that there are a lot of pens in the games.

I struggle to keep track of them, ive tried ticking my scorecard but when there are a few quickly taken pens you may not get the chance to do this.

The pens in question are spread out over the game and havent been cynical or in quick succession but they still mount up. so a team may have 15 pens spread out over the whole game for a range of different offences.

Any tips on how to keep track of the pen count ?

 

[crossref]

clearly there is no time to make a note after each PK

So you keep track in your head, pausing to make a note of the total so far on your card when possible (eg at a lineout or scrum)...

 

[Decorily]

15 penalties per team is pretty high.
Maybe you need to focus more on managing penalties out of the game instead of trying to keep track of the high number!
Are you vocal enough to be preventive or are you possibly blowing penalties that may not be material?

 

[Rich_NL]

Agree with CR. What's interesting besides the number is the distribution. Are they all different offences, or clustered around particular behaviours? If the former, could consistency or communication be improved? If the latter, would escalating to a card earlier help, or making a clear point in the PMB?

 

[Dickie E]

agree that 15 for a team is quite high. Rule of thumb is max 20 penalties for both teams for the whole game.

Why are you trying to keep track of number & type of penalties for the whole game especially if they are evenly distributed? I'd be more inclined to focus on the 3 or 4 that all happen in quick succession.

 

[beckett50]

The last few games Ive done , ive noticed that there are a lot of pens in the games.

I struggle to keep track of them, ive tried ticking my scorecard but when there are a few quickly taken pens you may not get the chance to do this.

The pens in question are spread out over the game and havent been cynical or in quick succession but they still mount up. so a team may have 15 pens spread out over the whole game for a range of different offences.

Any tips on how to keep track of the pen count ?

Like you I used to record them in my scorebook with a note of the number and the offence (used a form of shorthand). If it was the case that my scorebook was quickly in and out of the pocket that was a sign that the count was increasing and so a word to the Captain of the relevant team.

You also need to start linking offences. By that I mean "Tackler Not rolling away" and "Hands in the Ruck" and "Offside at the Tackle/Ruck" need to be treated as Tackle/Ruck offences rather than 3 different types of offence. That way your game management will improve and you should then be able to identify the trends quicker and get the cheats off the part earlier :noyc:

However, I over the summer I purchased the RefWatch and this has buttons that can be used to record the PK. Very effective as I also use it to record PK advantage that is played out.

 

[Phil E]

https://www.refscorer.com/shop/

The ref scorer can be used to count penalties.

 

[Shelflife]

agree that 15 for a team is quite high. Rule of thumb is max 20 penalties for both teams for the whole game.

Why are you trying to keep track of number & type of penalties for the whole game especially if they are evenly distributed? I'd be more inclined to focus on the 3 or 4 that all happen in quick succession.

Hi Dickie

Ive no problem with the 3 or 4 in quick succession, its the ones that just seem to rack up without any real trend. so you could have Red holding on, then blue in at the side, then blue high tackle, red playing a man in the line out all nicely spaced out in the first 20mins.

I spoke to another ref who suggested that I let the situation breathe for a second, I tend to blow quickly for say not rolling away at a ruck when another second the ball is available anyway and I then have the option of advantage if they really slowed down the ball or just playing on, having a word with the offending player at the next down time.

I tried this on Sunday and it def kept my pen count down without denying the non offending team the ability to play the ball.

Something to work on I suppose.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

I understand the rule of thumb comments but in many of my games, skill level, law knowledge and fitness are the major contributions to penalties rather than cynical!

 

[Arabcheif]

I'm a very new ref. 1st season, I've had 5 matches. So my experience may not be all that helpful. At the low levels I ref at I always just wait after the offence (except for bad high tackles, blow straight away). That way you can always blow after 5 seconds or so. I tell the teams, I'll let you play rugby. If there's a player lying on the ground but the ball is playable, play it. As long as he's not actively stopping play (by grabbing the 9/ball or by lying on top of the ball), we'll play on. Ultimately I tell them to play till they hear the whistle. As a result I have a very low Pen count. Of any advantages I play I prob bring back 2/3rds of them (for PKs). That'll reduce for Knock-on advantage to about 1/3-1/2.

 

[menace]

I spoke to another ref who suggested that I let the situation breathe for a second, I tend to blow quickly for say not rolling away at a ruck when another second the ball is available anyway and I then have the option of advantage if they really slowed down the ball or just playing on, having a word with the offending player at the next down time.

I tried this on Sunday and it def kept my pen count down without denying the non offending team the ability to play the ball.

Something to work on I suppose.

I'd say you identified the issue right there. It seems to be your "material effect" that you need to work on, of when to blow or when to play away, and think less about the count.

If possible try and get your games videos and you can then see how quick you're on the trigger and how technical you might be. Then compare that with your better/higher referees in your area and what they "let go" and learn from them.

 

[DocY]

Hi Dickie

Ive no problem with the 3 or 4 in quick succession, its the ones that just seem to rack up without any real trend. so you could have Red holding on, then blue in at the side, then blue high tackle, red playing a man in the line out all nicely spaced out in the first 20mins.

TBH, that sounds like players seeing what they can get away with.

I used to deliberately look for things to penalise at the first few breakdowns and would probably give four or five penalties at the first ten breakdowns - and would shout particularly loudly about what they were for - no waiting or letting it breathe.

It gave the message to players that I was a strict referee and they wouldn't get away with anything, so they wouldn't try. After setting my stall out, I'd let the game breathe much more.

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

TBH, that sounds like players seeing what they can get away with.

I used to deliberately look for things to penalise at the first few breakdowns and would probably give four or five penalties at the first ten breakdowns - and would shout particularly loudly about what they were for - no waiting or letting it breathe.

It gave the message to players that I was a strict referee and they wouldn't get away with anything, so they wouldn't try. After setting my stall out, I'd let the game breathe much more.

I like the sentiment with this. Just be aware that there is a risk of seeming to be inconsistent with this approach.
"Ref - But you pinged us for it in the first 10 mins . Why not now ? "

 

[Arabcheif]

Yeah, I'd get really annoyed with this approach as a player. You'd be more lenient with an offence in the last 10 mins than the 1st 10 mins. Seems to be inconsistent to me. I ref from the word go the same standard/tolerance that I do up till I blow the final whistle.

 

[didds]

Yeah, I'd get really annoyed with this approach as a player. You'd be more lenient with an offence in the last 10 mins than the 1st 10 mins. Seems to be inconsistent to me. I ref from the word go the same standard/tolerance that I do up till I blow the final whistle.

Im with AC on this really. I also get "why" its done. Conxeding 3 points for a "hard line" PK in the opening minute is just as important as overall gakme context as conceding 3 points in the last minute.

Of course in te same vein, one could ask if teams will run the ball from their own 22 in the last minute why dont they in the first ?

didds

 

[beckett50]

TBH, that sounds like players seeing what they can get away with.

I used to deliberately look for things to penalise at the first few breakdowns and would probably give four or five penalties at the first ten breakdowns - and would shout particularly loudly about what they were for - no waiting or letting it breathe.

It gave the message to players that I was a strict referee and they wouldn't get away with anything, so they wouldn't try. After setting my stall out, I'd let the game breathe much more.

There is a skill to being really strict in the first 10 minutes - setting out your stall - and then relaxing the approach.

Yous should only relax the approach, if you are being seriously strict in the opening quarter, if the players are responding. If they are not then this gives you early chances to :yellow:

It was said to me when starting out that the tough approach should be employed at the start of the match and after half-time. The problem comes in the second half when replacements are made and much of your good work can come undone by the arrival of the new players; this is why fitness is key as your mind will be sharp and aware of the risks of new players. Don't be afraid to pull back on the 'leniency' if the game is becoming problematic.

Remember also that the Captains have a responsibility in this area and you need to emphasise this to them if the the Penalty starts to run away again.

 

[SimonSmith]

I don't think I adjust my standards, I think my tendency to play advantage may change a bit.

You always want a couple of "statement penalties" you can make. Not rolling away, off feet, middle of the park. Really C&O - ping in. Don't even think about advantage unless a try is about to happen. Use downtime to reinforce what you need to see at that phase.
26th minute, I may be tempted to breathe a sec to see if something is on before I blow the penalty.
But the decision making process is still the same:
1.Is that penalty-worthy offence or not?
2. If yes, decide whether or not to play advantage.
3. If no, play on.

Steps 1 - 3 are the same the whole way through the game. Question 2 may get short shrift in the first 5