Penalty advantage - I don't see the point of it

[uncle fester]

You know those situations where a penalty offense is committed but play is still continuing and you hold out the arm to signal the advantage? You see refs doing it on the telly and I can't really see the reasoning behind it.

Most of the time, no real advantage accrues (and often because of the penalty offense itself) so the two teams batter away fruitlessly on the gainline until you call a halt to proceedings. Time has been wasted. There is the possibility of the penalty getting reversed. 90% of the time, there is no advantage to be gained and if the advantage isn't gained quickly, it's not going to be gained at all so why do refs bother playing it?

 

[Taff]

You know those situations where a penalty offense is committed but play is still continuing and you hold out the arm to signal the advantage? .... I can't really see the reasoning behind it. Most of the time, no real advantage accrues ..... 90% of the time, there is no advantage to be gained ..... so why do refs bother playing it?

Because there's a 10% chance that it might perhaps? Don't forget "most of the time" isn't "all of the time" so if nothing happens after a reasonable time then blow up and carry on with the PK. But the non-offending side should at least have the chance to take advantage of the other teams offending. How long is "reasonable"? Errr .... well, it depends.

I think you just know when enough is enough, and it's time to call a stop to it and bring them back for the original offence. Some of the best tries I've given have come when I was playing advantage; and TBH it's a pretty good feeling.

 

[Toby Warren]

You know those situations where a penalty offense is committed but play is still continuing and you hold out the arm to signal the advantage? You see refs doing it on the telly and I can't really see the reasoning behind it.

Most of the time, no real advantage accrues (and often because of the penalty offense itself) so the two teams batter away fruitlessly on the gainline until you call a halt to proceedings. Time has been wasted. There is the possibility of the penalty getting reversed. 90% of the time, there is no advantage to be gained and if the advantage isn't gained quickly, it's not going to be gained at all so why do refs bother playing it?

Uncle Fester taken from my latest report (posted elsewhere on here)



Advantage Grading G Give brief comments below to support the grade awarded

Correctly judged in accordance with offence. Use of advantage gave some flow to game and directly led to 2 tries.


I do however agree it is an art judging how long to let it go.

 

[uncle fester]

But penalty advantage lasting multiple phases?
If they don't get an advantage from it within one phase, they probably won't get an advantage at all.
Exception maybe in the 22 when defending team are happy to give away 3 points to minimise the risk of giving away 7.

 

[Davet]

Refs need to be able to read the game. Playing advantage simply to see what happens is utterly pointless and results in real playing time being lost to the game.

If there is a penalty offence then of course call advantage, but then look at the situation in front of you and take a judgement.

If there is an opportunity for them to gain lots of ground or gain a substantial tactical advantage then let it develop. If play is still mired down, with a slow ruck or a maul that is going nowhere then don't be afraid to blow and award the PK.

Remember that a PK itself is a significant benefit, and advantage really needs to outweigh that in order to be worthwhile.

 

[crossref]

down at community level I believe that many refs think that playing long advantage is sign of a very sophisticated ref and consequently they spend far too long holding their arm out.
- eg blue knock on, arm goes out, ref shouts 'ko, advantage red' so far so good
- blue regather the ball and hare off down the pitch in possession toward red tackler
- ref still has is arm out ! .. what - -in case red strip the ball get clean possession and regain the lost 15m...

 

[Toby Warren]

But penalty advantage lasting multiple phases?
If they don't get an advantage from it within one phase, they probably won't get an advantage at all.
Exception maybe in the 22 when defending team are happy to give away 3 points to minimise the risk of giving away 7.

Are you advocating that PK advantage should only ever be one phase?

The two trys that came from my game on Saturday came from 2nd or 3rd phase.

It is not unusual that at a PK you play no advantage (or 1-2 seconds) it's all about trying to read what could happen.

 

[Dixie]

Fester, there is no one answer to this; the best way to deal with penalty advantage depends upon multiple variables, including relative strength of the teams, field location, score at the time, disarray of the oppo (and also of the non-offending team). You are quite right that playing routine multi-phase advantage is a waste of time. But to argue that it should be limited to one phase (putting it on a par with scrum advantage) is odd, and IMO incorrect. But there must be a real prospect of advantage while your arm stays out - just using it to se what happens is pointless.

I'd suggest that advantage midfield is much less likely than advantage in the red zone, so you'd normally wait longer at the red zone. But if Red are losing by one point, are a man down and get a PK on the 22m line in front of the goal with 2 minutes to go, I see no point in waiting to see what happens - they will take the points on offer. Of course, it's always open tpo them to tell you that, but at the lower levels (e.g. France at the RWC ) tactically may not be sufficiently aware to ask for it.

It's an area where a ref needs to be able to read the game at least as well as the players.

 

[Davet]

You may well get a try after 2 or 3 phases. But if you are playing advantage you should always be looking for where the advantage is possible - perhaps a series of quick rucks. If it gets slow and bogged down then blow up.

It is if course possible that things get bogged down and then suddenly something gives and a try appears from nowhere. That's not good reffing, that's just lucky.

And 9 times out if 10 that lucky break would not have happened and you would have created a lot of dead time for nothing.

 

[Na Madrai]

Before every match I officiate, I speak to every player involved and my speech starts 'I play lots of advantage.........blah, blah........I do play a lot of advantage'.

I have never had a player or coach moan that I play too much advantage!

I regularly have tries scored after I have played advantage - one of the two matches I had yesterday had seven tries and three of those were whilst I was playing advantage, one from the team's own twenty-two when I was playing advantage from a knock-on which went on for three phases before the team were able to create an over lap.

If this is simply down to luck as has been suggested, I perhaps should start playing the lottery!

NM

 

[Davet]

And how many times did you eventually decide no advantage had occurred and bring play back with all that time wasted?

Or how many times did you play advantage for so long that you eventually called play on when none had really occurred; but you would have felt silly bringing it back after all that time?

 

[Na Madrai]

And how many times did you eventually decide no advantage had occurred and bring play back with all that time wasted?

Or how many times did you play advantage for so long that you eventually called play on when none had really occurred; but you would have felt silly bringing it back after all that time?

How is the time wasted? The players are playing rugby, the whole purpose of the exercise and the none offending team are aware that they have a free ball knowing that if they fail to gain an advantage, they will still have possession of the ball.

I cannot ever recall cancelling an advantage simply to prevent my feeling silly. When playing an advantage, everyone is aware that that is what I am doing and I leave it to my experience to decide when the advantage is over.

A the risk of repeating myself, I have never had a player or a coach complain that I played too much advantage - I have had players and coaches ask 'But what about advantage, ref?' but never the reverse.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I had a team on Saturday asking for the scrum/PK when I was playing advantage. I am not sure why - their scrum was awful and the LO was a not much better. Non of the PKs was kickable - apart from the one they got.

I went on exchange to NLD two years ago and played a long advantage (for not 10m) - we went across the field for about 3/4 phases. I blew up and went back to the mark then remembered it was a FK!!! :biggrin::redface:

 

[Mike Selig]

I agree entirely with Toby. All about context. If side A have very good running backs and have run in a few tries already even if not much on, I'd be tempted to play decent advantage even if there wasn't an obvious opportunity. On the other hand if it's a tight forward dominated match, a few flashpoints and 7 (why is it always 7?) decides it's a good idea to fall on the wrong side and lie on the ball then the chances of me playing advantage would be very slim.

Whatever the case make sure you communicate your advantage clearly.

Assume this is more about penalty advantages. Scrum advantage tends to be short anyway (either they have clean ball or they don't).

 

[Na Madrai]

I had a team on Saturday asking for the scrum/PK when I was playing advantage. I am not sure why - their scrum was awful and the LO was a not much better. Non of the PKs was kickable - apart from the one they got.

I went on exchange to NLD two years ago and played a long advantage (for not 10m) - we went across the field for about 3/4 phases. I blew up and went back to the mark then remembered it was a FK!!! :biggrin::redface:

I too have had this situation, I am playing advantage and the team decide that they are uninterested in doing so! What's a ref to do!!!!!!!?

I did once have a situation where I was playing advantage and the scrum half decided he had enough and deliberately knocked on to bring the advantage to an end. I penalised him for deliberate KO!!!! (If I knew how to do so, there would be a redfaced smilie thingy here).

 

[Davet]

Na

The time is wasted because when you blow up eventually then that play was never going anywhere that means no one was doing anything with the ball that was constructive and you have simply lost that game time.

If you play advantage when nothing is on, simply for the sake of it, then you are not helping the game.

Under what circumstances DO you bring play back for the offence?

Presumably when you see things are going nowhere.

From the sound of it the 9 who did a deliberate KO read the game better than you did. Penalising him for that is simply wrong in law. When one side offend and then the other does before advantage expires you simply bring play back for the first offence (unless serious foul play, which does NOT include a deliberate knock on).

 

[Na Madrai]

Na

The time is wasted because when you blow up eventually then that play was never going anywhere that means no one was doing anything with the ball that was constructive and you have simply lost that game time.

When does one decide that the play was never going anywhere? All the time I am playing an advantage I hope that someone is doing something constructive with the ball otherwise no advantage could possibly accrue and I would act accordingly but they must be granted that opportunity. The match is continuing and there is no lost game time.











If you play advantage when nothing is on, simply for the sake of it, then you are not helping the game.

Should a team not be given an opportunity to see if they can develop advantage?


Under what circumstances DO you bring play back for the offence?

When I decide that the opportunity for an advantage to develop is over

Presumably when you see things are going nowhere.

Exactly! But a team must be given the opportunity if not, why bother to have the advantage law?

From the sound of it the 9 who did a deliberate KO read the game better than you did. Penalising him for that is simply wrong in law. When one side offend and then the other does before advantage expires you simply bring play back for the first offence (unless serious foul play, which does NOT include a deliberate knock on).

My comment in brackets about the red faced smiley thingy was an attempt to acknowledge that I was aware that I was totally wrong in my decision against the 9

 

[Na Madrai]

My apologies for the construction of the above reply - I am using a laptop for the first time and struggling to do so correctly.

NM

 

[Davet]

Na

If you play advantage for say 30 seconds, and then bring it back that 30 seconds is wasted. It is dead and irrecoverable. By definition nothing particularly good happened during the time, whereas if you had awarded the PK then we could gave got on with the game, had a 3 point kick perhaps, or a good attacking lineout. Instead, because you played a long and ultimately pointless advantage we have lost that time and are no further forward - we have simply come to the same place to take the PK that we could have done 30 seconds ago.

 

[Na Madrai]

I thnk that we are going to have to agree to disagree - you seem to believe that unless there is a clear and obvious immediate advantage, stop the match. Whereas I believe that the players get more enjoyment from a game that is allowed to flow with as few stoppages as possible and the aim of the advantage law is to give a team the opportunity to let the match flow and minimise stoppages.

As to the red faced smiley thingy, I have just been advised that this represents anger and not embarrassment which is the emotion I was trying to achieve, apologies all.

NM