Penalty Kick at Goal Not Taken

[the magpie]

Yesterday during a 2nd grade Suburban fixture (with no time off), black were awarded a penalty kick, which they chose to take a shot at goal.

After over a minute of messing around, no one was able to deliver black a tee for taking the kick. Black were also not interested in taking the penalty as a drop kick. After over 2 minutes of messing around, black requested to take a tap instead, which the referee allowed.

21.5(b) says that once a team indicates that they will take a shot at goal they must take a shot at goal. (Sanction - scrum)

10.2(b) say that you can't waste time (Sanction - free kick).

Did the referee make the right call, or should he have penalised black for wasting time?

 

[PaulDG]

Did the referee make the right call, or should he have penalised black for wasting time?

I don't know what "level" that fixture would be relative to ours but with a team unable to find a tee or a cone and unwilling to try having a player support the ball or even a drop, I'd guess it was pretty low level.

So sure, why not let them take a tap as long as the opposition were given time to prepare?

Unless, with your "no time off" rule, it was clear the team were deliberately trying to run the clock down in which case I'd go with the scrum to the opposition or maybe even reverse the penalty for "unsportsmanlike conduct".

It's about making the game work, after all, not about sticking to the book no matter what. (Or, if you like, making proper use of the management tools the book gives us in being the sole judges of fact and law, making us the sole timekeepers and giving us leeway with offences such as "unsportsmanlike conduct".)

 

[OB..]

Surely when there is no time off allowed, you have to be strict with time limits. The teams will be used to playing under such conditions, so I don't really see why the referee should not stick to them.

 

[Taff]

Couldn't they have just borrowed a tee from the oppos or failing that used a training cone?

Either that or instruct a team mate to hold it. If even that failed (we're really struggling now) I would be tempted to hold the ball myself as long as it meant getting on with it. I know the lawbook says it should be a "team mate" but I've seen Wayne Barnes ignore that one at international level - and if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me.

The above assumes it's an U19 friendly so a bit of flexibility can be tolerated. If it was a senior cup game, they're allowed a minute and if it goes over that, it's a scrum to the oppos at the same mark

 

[Davet]

After the indication of a kick to goal is made then they have 1 minute. The arrival of the Tee acts as an indication of a kick, but in the circumstances described I would simply have disallowed the kick - restart with a scrum opponents put-in.

Moral of the story - don't pi$$ around.

 

[PaulDG]

Surely when there is no time off allowed, you have to be strict with time limits. The teams will be used to playing under such conditions, so I don't really see why the referee should not stick to them.

Again, IMHO it depends on the level of the match and, to an extent if it's likely the result of the kick will affect the result.

If it's in the last 5 minutes and the kicking team is already 130-0 down, what's the harm?

 

[OB..]

If it's in the last 5 minutes and the kicking team is already 130-0 down, what's the harm?

You can say that about almost any decision in that situation.

The harm is that the team will get the wrong message. At 130-0 down you might as well think about the future. The present is already past.

 

[The Fat]

Yesterday during a 2nd grade Suburban fixture (with no time off), black were awarded a penalty kick, which they chose to take a shot at goal.

After over a minute of messing around, no one was able to deliver black a tee for taking the kick. Black were also not interested in taking the penalty as a drop kick. After over 2 minutes of messing around, black requested to take a tap instead, which the referee allowed.

21.5(b) says that once a team indicates that they will take a shot at goal they must take a shot at goal. (Sanction - scrum)

10.2(b) say that you can't waste time (Sanction - free kick).

Did the referee make the right call, or should he have penalised black for wasting time?

Ahhhhh. The old missing kicking tee. It is one that I wait for each week at both our junior and senior matches to the extent that I am now tempted to check with the benches that they actually have their kicking tee located prior to the game.
2nd grade senior game here on the weekend that I AR'd for and after first try the water boys ran out to both teams and left the kicker standing beside the ref calling to the bench, on the far side of the ground of course, for the kicking tee. After several calls and some shoulder shrugging from the bench, the kicker took a drop kick...........and missed.
The tee was rushed out for every other kick.
I don't know where they hide, but the kicking tee is never in the gear bag where it's supposed to be when the first shot at goal comes up.

 

[Ian_Cook]

This makes me a bit sad.

It seems that the age old skill of making your own kicking tee with the heel of your boot and your hands has been lost from the game.....

Instead of taking 30 seconds to build your own tee, you spend two minutes looking for a plastic one... Grrrrr :norc:

 

[OB..]

Who needs a tee? Just get the scrum half to lie down and hold the ball for you. In these effete days he doesn't even need to hold it off the ground.

 

[Dickie E]

So sure, why not let them take a tap as long as the opposition were given time to prepare?

21.5(b) prevents that option.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Instead of taking 30 seconds to build your own tee, you spend two minutes looking for a plastic one... Grrrrr :norc:

It used to take me less than 10 seconds to tee the ball up.

Three heel digs into turf to create pyramid, one small indent on top for ball.

Four steps back, on to the side and I was ready - I was a round the corner kicker, wearing soccer boots (Adidas Santiago), when many were still head on toe punters with high sided rugby boots (with hard toecaps).

In answer to the original question - the Law is clear and you should award a turnover scrum for the delay in most circumstances I can think of, but using your judgement and mitigation for very low level matches (not League or Merit trable) you might be more forgiving.

 

[Deeps]

This makes me a bit sad.

It seems that the age old skill of making your own kicking tee with the heel of your boot and your hands has been lost from the game.....

Instead of taking 30 seconds to build your own tee, you spend two minutes looking for a plastic one... Grrrrr :norc:

Here, bludy here!

This goes along with the ball not leaving the hands at a tap kick which I will always pull up although I invariably see many referees bottle this one.

Players don't seem to understand that there are a few skills required for this game of ours; we have already made it easy for them by providing consistent weight, easy grip balls that don't behave like bars of soap in wet weather and little plastic gizmos to stand their balls on (Rolls Royce think of everything!).

 

[Rit Hinners]

Here, bludy here!

..... we have already made it easy for them by providing consistent weight, easy grip balls that don't behave like bars of soap in wet weather and little plastic gizmos to stand their balls on (Rolls Royce think of everything!).

Let us not forget that when wet they must've weighed in at around 10-15 pounds.

 

[Phil E]

Let us not forget that when wet they must've weighed in at around 10-15 pounds.

The ball or the winger

 

[GeorgeR]

Elite referees can get it wrong as well. At a Gloucester home game this season, at a penalty kick against Gloucester, the opposition indicated the kick, the AR's went behind the posts and then they "changed their minds and kicked for touch". Both the AR's were in the wrong place, the kick to touch appeared to go over the touch line at or around the the corner flag - could have been either side of it. The referee allowed the kick to touch...

 

[crossref]

But Who Threw In ?

 

[Chunky Charvis]

Couldn't they have just borrowed a tee from the oppos or failing that used a training cone?

Either that or instruct a team mate to hold it. If even that failed (we're really struggling now) I would be tempted to hold the ball myself as long as it meant getting on with it. I know the lawbook says it should be a "team mate" but I've seen Wayne Barnes ignore that one at international level - and if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me.

The above assumes it's an U19 friendly so a bit of flexibility can be tolerated. If it was a senior cup game, they're allowed a minute and if it goes over that, it's a scrum to the oppos at the same mark

When was this?!!!

 

[Taff]

When was this?!!!

I'm pretty sure it was an international France were playing in last season. For some reason or another the French kicker needed help holding the ball. I seem to remember the tee / water carrier eventually held it up while they kicked it, and thinking to myself "I didn't think that was allowed". Sure enough when the camera zoomed in on the kicker and WB jogging back to the middle, we clearly heard him say politely "Next time, use a team mate". I think he repeated it twice as the French player had his "What eeeezz ziss you are talking ebout Monsieur Rossbeef?" face on.

 

[Ian_Cook]

It used to take me less than 10 seconds to tee the ball up.

Three heel digs into turf to create pyramid, one small indent on top for ball.

I was making allowance for players like Bob Hiller :biggrin:


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