Penalty Kick

Not Kurt Weaver


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No tees allowed unless for conversion or penalty attempt hence the presence of a tee acts as the marker or intent. But if the kicker digs a hole Paul Thorburn style, you might ask if the are taking a shot but one cannot assume.
No need to ask,

If the team indicates to the referee the intention to kick at goal, they must kick at goal. The intention to kick can be communicated to the referee or signalled by the arrival of the kicking tee or sand, or when the player makes a mark on the ground.
 

BikingBud


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No need to ask,

If the team indicates to the referee the intention to kick at goal, they must kick at goal. The intention to kick can be communicated to the referee or signalled by the arrival of the kicking tee or sand, or when the player makes a mark on the ground.
Can be not is or must be!

So I refer to my previous, if he tees it up then you might ask.

If you don't ask you are assuming!
 

Not Kurt Weaver


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Can be not is or must be!

So I refer to my previous, if he tees it up then you might ask.

If you don't ask you are assuming!
My interpretation is that,
when the player makes a mark on the ground.
is indicating to ref intention to kick at goal. He must kick at goal. I could ask his intentions, but he is not obliged to answer. And he could fib. No law against fibbing to ref. If he does not kick at goal, then I have to follow law based on outcome of kick.
 

Not Kurt Weaver


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Can be not is or must be!

So I refer to my previous, if he tees it up then you might ask.

If you don't ask you are assuming!
oh I just figured your response. Can be is not must be.

"Can be" is in lieu of player not saying or signaling a kick at goal.. When a player makes a mark becomes fact as another form of communicating. This would come in handy if I were referring a team that spoke a different language.
 

BikingBud


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If something can be it also cannot be. I don't feel it says if the ball is set up on the ground then that must be a kick at goal.

To my mind if you are allowed to place kick a penalty then asking if it is a shot at goal clarifies that intent.

Checking the definitions:

Place-kick: The ball is kicked after it has been placed on the ground (or on an approved kicking tee) for that purpose.

Kicking tee: Any device approved by the match organiser to support the ball when taking a place-kick

So I would draw back on post #60:
No tees allowed unless for conversion or penalty attempt hence the presence of a tee acts as the marker or intent.
but I would raise an eyebrow if someone expected to use a kicking tee to kick a penalty other than at goal although it does appear to be legal.

Pop it on the tee. Get all the defenders gathered on the left hand side of the pitch and focussed on the posts , RH winger stays out wide, kicker drops a beauty in the far 15 m channel for the winger to stroll in.
 

Marc Wakeham


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fair enough and Id agree.
So in the two times I've seen it done, why wasnt it called by the ref?
rhetorical questions obviously as we wont/cant know. But clearly there is a potential use of subterfuge that may well not actually get picked up on.
and it just comes back to wadr the naivety that an indicated kick at goal will be a kick at goal. That's all.
let alone such a place kick ending up in touch (howsoever ending there) and somehow despite place kicks not permitted for kicks to touch, clearly being accepted as such. Which makes no sense to me at all :)
Just a thought or two:

Was is before the law was changed? I'm sure at one time you could place kick to touch.

Perhaps the referee just got it wrong or didn't know the law?

I don't see it as "naivety" to expect a kicker to comply with the law.
I think you last bit is covered. The law does not seek to punish failure of the kick b going back to the mark and having a scrum . So the only "punishment" is the otherside getting the throw. IF you do "cheat" then you go back for the scrum. Clearly the accidental reult of the ball going into toich is not "accepted" if it were the kicking side would be getting the throw.
 

Marc Wakeham


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Simply placing the ball on the ground is not an indication of shot at goal. It would be practical to have it as such, but it is not in the scoring law.
A ball could be place either vertically or with the long axis of the ball horizontally. For a place kick at goal, the law requires sand, tee, placer, or a making mark or also a indicaction from non-offending. Nothing more is mentioned.

This above actually is practical as the horizontally placed meets the definition of a place kick, and also allow a slight kick forward a visible distance from the mark, and then played by kicker or teammate instead of a punt quick tap.

I do believe you would allow a horizontally placed ball to be kicked forward and played by kicking team, no law is against it. The same would be true of a vertically placed (albeit briefly) ball with none of the indications , no law is against it. The is also no law against how far these two types kicks can go or direction. However, these two types of kicks described above cannot go "for" touch and thus "to" touch.
If the player then kicks it from the floor it has become a place kick as it is not kicked "out of hand"
 
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Not Kurt Weaver


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If the player then picks it from the floor it has become a place kick as it is not kicked "out of hand"
I'm not sure what exactly you are saying, but players my certainly change type of kick. If ball is placed and there are no indications of intent for goal a player may pick it up and punt or drop for touch. And expect throw in at l/o.
 

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but I would raise an eyebrow if someone expected to use a kicking tee to kick a penalty other than at goal although it does appear to be legal.
Have seen a few times when a penalty has been given and a runner sprints on with water and tee but the kicker only takes the water. Once they take the tee, I take that as indicative of a shot at goal rather than just the tee being on the pitch.
 

Not Kurt Weaver


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Have seen a few times when a penalty has been given and a runner sprints on with water and tee but the kicker only takes the water. Once they take the tee, I take that as indicative of a shot at goal rather than just the tee being on the pitch.
The intention to kick can be communicated to the referee or signalled by the arrival of the kicking tee or sand, or when the player makes a mark on the ground.

Oh Geez, Now we have to discuss the definition arrival of the kicking tee. When does the kicking tee officially arrive at kick?

A response to this is not sought or requested. I'm just being wise arse.
 

BikingBud


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Have seen a few times when a penalty has been given and a runner sprints on with water and tee but the kicker only takes the water. Once they take the tee, I take that as indicative of a shot at goal rather than just the tee being on the pitch.
Is that because Rassie has sent them on via the traffic light system?
 

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Is that because Rassie has sent them on via the traffic light system?
Nothing so nefarious/cunning - earlier PK they ran the clock down waiting for the tee and ended up taking a rushed and unsuccessful drop-kick from a decent position.

The coach was somewhat dischuffed and made it clear that this was not going to happen again so they made sure the tee was on asap so the option was always there.
 

Decorily

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Have seen a few times when a penalty has been given and a runner sprints on with water and tee but the kicker only takes the water. Once they take the tee, I take that as indicative of a shot at goal rather than just the tee being on the pitch.
I agree with you but Saint Nigel may not?
 

BikingBud


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Nothing so nefarious/cunning - earlier PK they ran the clock down waiting for the tee and ended up taking a rushed and unsuccessful drop-kick from a decent position.

The coach was somewhat dischuffed and made it clear that this was not going to happen again so they made sure the tee was on asap so the option was always there.
Seems to be exactly the same thing.

The coach imposing the decision from afar rather than trusting the on field leaders.
 

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Seems to be exactly the same thing.

The coach imposing the decision from afar rather than trusting the on field leaders.

To be fair, they were very inexperienced and needed all the help they could get.

I often have U14 teams where they have a large number of players in their first season in the same are I also have a small number of teams with large ex-pat community (several big corporations in one corner of the state).

Novice players vs. kids from tier 1 nations who’ve been playing since they could run - my report sometimes looks like a cricket score.
 

Marc Wakeham


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I'm not sure what exactly you are saying, but players my certainly change type of kick. If ball is placed and there are no indications of intent for goal a player may pick it up and punt or drop for touch. And expect throw in at l/o.
Indeed they may but not when they have indicated a kick at goal andthe law covers thet reasonably well.
 
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Blackberry


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great question! I've asked it of our county teams, see what they make of it.
 

Shelflife


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Have seen a few times when a penalty has been given and a runner sprints on with water and tee but the kicker only takes the water. Once they take the tee, I take that as indicative of a shot at goal rather than just the tee being on the pitch.

Runners shouldn't be allowed onto the pitch when a pen is given unless its with the express intention of giving the player a kicking tee.

First time it happens I would inform the runner not to enter the field of play unless it was to give the kicking tee and that I would take his entry onto the pitch as an indication of intention to kick at goal in future.

I would then clarify what the teams intentions were, and if not kicking at goal, remove the runner and indicate clearly to the opposition captain what was happening.
 

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Runners shouldn't be allowed onto the pitch when a pen is given unless its with the express intention of giving the player a kicking tee.
When I’ve seen this it has only been about ensuring they didn’t get timed out. Again.

If the team decided to kick for the posts the tee was ready to go, otherwise the runner just got back off the pitch. Sometimes, as they’re running on the kicker punted it to touch and the runner quickly wheeled around and cleared the pitch. No complaints from anyone.

Just kept things moving.
 
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