Period of Advantage

crossref


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It was Quins v Castres - Fri evening, times from game clock

@58:50 - Castres line out on Quins 22m, ball caught by Castres >Maul
@58:59 - Penalty advantage - Quins 7 in the side
@59:16 - Castres break from maul and tackled.
@59:22 - pick and go > tackled.
@59:25 - pick and go > tackled.
@59.33 - wider pass, right to left, to 10 and then passed again,
@59:40 - tackled, ball worked back inside, left to right. 3 phases.
@60:01 -pass 9>10, right to left. 10 jinks inside Marler when outside Quins 5m defensive line, all cover beaten.
@60:04 - drops ball before line - ref comes back for 7 in the side!
Healey comments: "brilliance followed by baloney!"

So my apologies, roughly 10 phases and over 1 min of play.

No further penalties, no new advantage, yet plenty of offensive pressure, enough to create a line break with a clear run in of ~ 7m

Is that piece of string long enough?
So when was advantage actually gained? at 60.02 when the line break was made ?

Fair enough, so the ref should have called advantage over in the brief two seconds before the drop .. maybe he just was quick enough or perhaps he was waiting a second or two to make sure line break was genuine

Doesn't seem such a big fault
 

Phil E


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How is tactical and territorial advantage defined?

Team moves the ball forward 10 meters - territorial advantage?

Team spins the ball down the line to an unmarked winger - tactical? Advantage over?

Advantage is defined in Law.

Advantage: A clear and real tactical or territorial benefit arising after an infringement by the opposition.

Advantage :
May be tactical. The non-offending team is free to play the ball as they wish.
May be territorial. Play has moved towards the offending team’s dead-ball line.
May be a combination of tactical and territorial.
Must be clear and real. A mere opportunity to gain an advantage is not sufficient.
 

crossref


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Advantage is defined in Law.

Advantage: A clear and real tactical or territorial benefit arising after an infringement by the opposition.

Advantage :
May be tactical. The non-offending team is free to play the ball as they wish.
May be territorial. Play has moved towards the offending team’s dead-ball line.
May be a combination of tactical and territorial.
Must be clear and real. A mere opportunity to gain an advantage is not sufficient.
Yeees ... But that definition is skewed toward a a scrum advantage, isn't it ?

In the case of a PK advantage (which is what we are discussing here) merely being free to play the ball as you wish would not normally mean advantage over.

It would be useful if the Law Book discussed PK and scrum advantage separately. Or, better, in a law application guideline
 

number11


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Phil E: Thanks, but I had pored over that part of the laws and was still no wiser.

As a player I always understood advantage to be gaining 10 meters of territory. Nothing I saw when spectating made me question this. Ironically it was reading of the laws which started my thinking!

The discussion here has helped furthering my understanding.

I found this article: https://rugbydome.com/advantage-rule-in-rugby/

What is tactical advantage?​

A referee described it to me with this example:

Let’s say that the non-offending team has bunched their forwards to the left of the ruck, where they are outnumbered by the defensive line.

But there are five speedy backs to the right of the ruck with only one unlucky defender in the wide-open space.

Under advantage, the out half slings the ball out to the inside center. It’s a three-on-one scenario for a certain try.

But the butter-handed center fumbles and drops the ball. Chance gone.

In this case, the team has squandered a tactical advantage. The referee shouldn’t reward their ineptitude by calling play back and giving them the penalty.
I don't think I've ever seen this kind of scenario played out, on the pitch nor on the TV. If I did I probably would not have agreed with it!
 

OB..


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What sort of gain would the team have made but for the offence?

For example, a player receives the ball and chooses to kick. If he is under pressure, and the kick is poor, go back for the offence. Otherwise, play on.
 

BikingBud


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Yeees ... But that definition is skewed toward a a scrum advantage, isn't it ?

In the case of a PK advantage (which is what we are discussing here) merely being free to play the ball as you wish would not normally mean advantage over.

It would be useful if the Law Book discussed PK and scrum advantage separately. Or, better, in a law application guideline
You may feel it is skewed and maybe the fact that it doesn't really differentiate is good but we do now have a gaping chasm between how the 2 situations are being managed.

To my mind I am happy with the statements but feel that the widely held assumption (your normally) that there has been no advantage if the non-offending team does not score from a penalty advantage in the 22 is flawed. The statements do not say opportunity to score, the criteria are lower than opportunity to score, but the attacking side had that clear, real and obvious tactical and territorial route to scoring.

As you are unlikely to achieve a direct route to scoring without tactical or territorial superiority, advantage, the test should be deemed to be met.

How many would have objected if the ref had said, knock on, no try, advantage over and given the scrum to the defending side?
 

crossref


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How many would have objected if the ref had said, knock on, no try, advantage over and given the scrum to the defending side?
I would - if advantage was not already achieved PRIOR to the knock on..... then it can't have been achieved BY knocking it on.

I come back to my question (that you haven't addressed) when exactly do you think advantage was achieved? at 60:02 ?
 

BikingBud


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I would - if advantage was not already achieved PRIOR to the knock on..... then it can't have been achieved BY knocking it on.

I come back to my question (that you haven't addressed) when exactly do you think advantage was achieved? at 60:02 ?
Yes as he beats the last defender.

They have advanced the attack from the Quins' 22 m line to the Quins' 5m line - Actual territorial gain.

They have beaten the last defender, stepping inside Marler - Actual tactical gain.

There was no impediment to prevent Castres scoring, they could not have had anymore advantage.

Unless we are saying they have to score for any advantage to be real and that's my point.

If Quins had transgressed again, easy decision new offence, new advantage but they didn't.

Perhaps if we move the whole sequence back 15 metres and the ref has time to call advantage over rather than being as surprised as the rest of us, including Healey, that Botica dropped a sitter.
 

Zebra1922


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It was Quins v Castres - Fri evening, times from game clock

@58:50 - Castres line out on Quins 22m, ball caught by Castres >Maul
@58:59 - Penalty advantage - Quins 7 in the side
@59:16 - Castres break from maul and tackled.
@59:22 - pick and go > tackled.
@59:25 - pick and go > tackled.
@59.33 - wider pass, right to left, to 10 and then passed again,
@59:40 - tackled, ball worked back inside, left to right. 3 phases.
@60:01 -pass 9>10, right to left. 10 jinks inside Marler when outside Quins 5m defensive line, all cover beaten.
@60:04 - drops ball before line - ref comes back for 7 in the side!
Healey comments: "brilliance followed by baloney!"

So my apologies, roughly 10 phases and over 1 min of play.

No further penalties, no new advantage, yet plenty of offensive pressure, enough to create a line break with a clear run in of ~ 7m

Is that piece of string long enough?
The time period is irrelevant. You’re looking at what is likely to happen with the penalty then looking for equivalent from the advantage. So in this case, depending on where the penalty is in relation the touch line, it’s likely is you give the penalty Castres will kick for goal and get the points. So they do not gain an advantage unless they score points from the advantage. If they don’t, they gained no advantage from playing on so you go back for the penalty.
 

Jarrod Burton


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Advantage for mine is the team gaining an equivalent benefit as what they could expect by applying the sanction. For Scrum, this is the ability to play the ball from the base of a ruck without undue pressure from the offending side, or about 5-10m territory from the point of infringement. For a PK it depends on the location of the infringement - outside the attacking 22 I'll assume they would have kicked for territory at my level and give them 20ish metres or around 5 phases. Inside the 22 if they don't score within around 10 phases I'm coming back for the kick, but its all game and PK infringement dependant - a high shot might get two phases or none at all if I think its about to blow up into handbags.
 

Jarrod Burton


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Advantage for mine is the team gaining an equivalent benefit as what they could expect by applying the sanction. For Scrum, this is the ability to play the ball from the base of a ruck without undue pressure from the offending side, or about 5-10m territory from the point of infringement. For a PK it depends on the location of the infringement - outside the attacking 22 I'll assume they would have kicked for territory at my level and give them 20ish metres or around 5 phases. Inside the 22 if they don't score within around 10 phases I'm coming back for the kick, but its all game and PK infringement dependant - a high shot might get two phases or none at all if I think its about to blow up into handbags.
Can't edit, but wanted to add that Advantage is probably the most variable issue from referee to referee and even game to game. Takes a long time to get it "right" IMO.
 

crossref


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Yes as he beats the last defender.

They have advanced the attack from the Quins' 22 m line to the Quins' 5m line - Actual territorial gain.

They have beaten the last defender, stepping inside Marler - Actual tactical gain.

There was no impediment to prevent Castres scoring, they could not have had anymore advantage.

Unless we are saying they have to score for any advantage to be real and that's my point.

If Quins had transgressed again, easy decision new offence, new advantage but they didn't.

Perhaps if we move the whole sequence back 15 metres and the ref has time to call advantage over rather than being as surprised as the rest of us, including Healey, that Botica dropped a sitter.
So really your criticism is that the referee didn't manage to call adv over in that brief second between beating defender and knocking on
 

Arabcheif

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I play and referee. One of my society colleagues was the appointed ref in my match on Saturday. The Coach of the opposition was also a ref in the society too. His advantage seems very short on my opinion. An example, he had signed for a advantage where the 15m line and our 10m line crossed (I think it was for not rolling away as one of our lads hadn't got up in the split second after making a tackle, I play at the bottom echelons in Scotland BTW). Anyway, he signaled advantage. The opposition got the ball. 9 picked it up and passed to 10 who kicked it through to just inside our 22. We gathered the ball and started to run with it up the field. Now IMO, this should've been brought back for a penalty for the original offence. The opposition didn't have territorial and tactical advantage. Perhaps if they'd caught the ball after the kick, were tackled and then we turned the ball over that would be fine, but that didn't happen. He was also inconsistent with advantage too. Similar thing in the second half but brought it back for the penalty to the opp. Seemed to have 2 different refs each half.
 

Volun-selected


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Thanks for the link - an interesting read, and one part jumped out at me…
You may hear commentators grumble about how long an advantage lasts, or that the referee ended the advantage period too quickly.
Or more specifically from personal experience:
You will hear the defending team grumble about how long an advantage lasts, or the attacking team that the referee ended the advantage period too quickly.
 

Zebra1922


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I play and referee. One of my society colleagues was the appointed ref in my match on Saturday. The Coach of the opposition was also a ref in the society too. His advantage seems very short on my opinion. An example, he had signed for a advantage where the 15m line and our 10m line crossed (I think it was for not rolling away as one of our lads hadn't got up in the split second after making a tackle, I play at the bottom echelons in Scotland BTW). Anyway, he signaled advantage. The opposition got the ball. 9 picked it up and passed to 10 who kicked it through to just inside our 22. We gathered the ball and started to run with it up the field. Now IMO, this should've been brought back for a penalty for the original offence. The opposition didn't have territorial and tactical advantage. Perhaps if they'd caught the ball after the kick, were tackled and then we turned the ball over that would be fine, but that didn't happen. He was also inconsistent with advantage too. Similar thing in the second half but brought it back for the penalty to the opp. Seemed to have 2 different refs each half.
I don't suppose you lost the game did you?
 

chbg


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An alternative viewpoint: advantage is over at the first stage that the non-infringing team definitely object returning to the infringement ...
 

Arabcheif

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I don't suppose you lost the game did you?
I'm unsure why that's relavent. I'm giving examples that should have been brought back to have possession to our opponents..... but to answer your question, no we won the match. You're assumption is wrong.
 
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