Player red carded in an unsanctioned friendly 10s match at the field of a 15s tournament, is the player out for the day at the tournament?

BikingBud


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It all sounds very badly organised
Sometimes that's what is deemed necessary to allow people to play the game. High levels of protocol and approved standards might be the ideal situation but if people want play and there is some scope should everybody just stay in the bar because there is no referee's appointment process or the society shirt cannot be worn?
 

Decorily

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Are you saying that it was all clear and well organised? I wonder why jdeagro came here to ask about it then?
No I'm not saying it was all clear...if you ready previous post you will see that I'm saying that the finer details are unclear and as such it's possibly unfair to say that it was very badly organised.
 

Volun-selected


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I think there a lot of variation region to region and level to level. If I get assigned to a tournament then I’ll give them x amount of time and/or matches. At the kids’ level it’s not that unusual for my match report (singular) to have 3 games detailed in it at a round robin contest. However I think it was @Marc Wakeham who said his union rules were that an official can only adjudicate the assigned match.

For me, the only hard and fast rule is that all the players need to be registered with USAR and there is a medic or athletic physio on the sidelines.
 

crossref


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Bottom line is .. someone got a RC on the field and then immediately afterwards was allowed to play in a tournament.

So, something has gone badly wrong right there, that shouldn't happen.

Who was the "head ref" who decided that ? Was he/she one of the tournament organisers?

Was the RC reported back and so that there was a disciplinary action? Did the player get a ban later ?
 

crossref


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Sometimes that's what is deemed necessary to allow people to play the game. High levels of protocol and approved standards might be the ideal situation but if people want play and there is some scope should everybody just stay in the bar because there is no referee's appointment process or the society shirt cannot be worn?
In England it's fine for two rugby clubs to organise a scratch friendly. If they asked me to ref it I'd say yes, and I'd take my society shirt off and wear a different one. If they asked Marc to ref it , he explained above he would have to call his society first , and if he couldn't reach them to get permission he'd have to decline .

If I sent someone off in the game, I would be feel let down by club B and by the tournament organisers if he was allowed to play in the tournament immediately afterwards

I would decline to ref a game involving a player I had RC earlier the same day.

A RC is a serious thing and should be taken seriously
 

crossref


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Not sure how you've deduced that so far. The game definitely was not part of the tournament as the original description states..
Well, more detail has arisen. The tournament organisers organised a game between A and B at a particular time , to be reffed by Joe Bloggs,

At the particular time, A played B and the game was reffed by Joe Bloggs. Its not completely distinct from the tournament...

I was joking when I asked what shirt the ref wore, but I do wonder if they had tournament shirts and was he/she wearing one ??
 
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Marc Wakeham


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I think there a lot of variation region to region and level to level. If I get assigned to a tournament then I’ll give them x amount of time and/or matches. At the kids’ level it’s not that unusual for my match report (singular) to have 3 games detailed in it at a round robin contest. However I think it was @Marc Wakeham who said his union rules were that an official can only adjudicate the assigned match.

For me, the only hard and fast rule is that all the players need to be registered with USAR and there is a medic or athletic physio on the sidelines.
I can be appointed to a game (fron youth up) or a tournament (the number of games beign dependent of the day). However. If appointed to a 15s event and then there is a 10s game that is not officially part of the event then it is no. I'm not authorised to do the game.

this is my original post (in part) "...
Much depends on your local / union rules. We (WRU) cannot referee "unsanctioned" games. So if appointed to a tournament and an "extra" game comes up we cannot go there...
 

BikingBud


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In England it's fine for two rugby clubs to organise a scratch friendly. If they asked me to ref it I'd say yes, and I'd take my society shirt off and wear a different one. If they asked Marc to ref it , he explained above he would have to call his society first , and if he couldn't reach them to get permission he'd have to decline .

If I sent someone off in the game, I would be feel let down by club B and by the tournament organisers if he was allowed to play in the tournament immediately afterwards

I would decline to ref a game involving a player I had RC earlier the same day.

A RC is a serious thing and should be taken seriously
But was it a red card offence or did the ref on the day make a significant error of judgment, off track but there is lots of commentary about Leicester v Quins from the weekend!

Anyway, that was the basis of my comment about discussing with Team B
If it was out and out thuggery, given that I would not expect the unofficial game to have any standing, I would expect the tournament committee to be having a very clear discussion with the team officials of Team B to ensure they have dealt with the individual. Perhaps in a similar way that you would discuss with the coach of a junior age side, suggesting it might be better if the individual sits this one out, for the "overall benefit of the game".
I am sure you can justify to yourself the desire not to referee a player you have just carded but where is the disciplinary going to go? If you put ownership of the problem, the player, with team B they make the decision.

They may suggest that it was not an offence and you have been overzealous or even biased. Or the head referee may find that there is too much risk allowing you to referee team B again and suggest you stand aside!

However, if due process is not in place or has not been followed, how do you unpick that later?

Edit to Add: At what point would you feel comfortable reffing a player you have previously red carded? 2 weeks, 6 weeks, never, after the ban has been served (what ban? who said anything about a ban?) See Freddy Steward! Chris Ashton?

I've played with against some absolute thugs and red cards were seldom shown, some did get bans and went to play League but the red cards that are now being discussed as marginal do not generally indicate long term thuggish or dangerous behaviour, is the sending off adequate punishment for those "offences?"
 
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Marc Wakeham


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Well, more detail has arisen. The tournament organisers organised a game between A and B at a particular time , to be reffed by Joe Bloggs,

At the particular time, A played B and the game was reffed by Joe Bloggs. Its not completely distinct from the tournament...

I was joking when I asked what shirt the ref wore, but I do wonder if they had tournament shirts and was he/she wearing one ??
Ours if futher complicated in that fro PRE-SEASON freindlies the clubs self appoint BUT the referee must be of the required level for the game. We Can but are not required to where our WRU official shirt for such games. For "Union sanctioned" games during the season we must wear current shirts unless there is a very good reason. That is to do with our ponsors.
 

BikingBud


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Bottom line is .. someone got a RC on the field and then immediately afterwards was allowed to play in a tournament.

So, something has gone badly wrong right there, that shouldn't happen.

Who was the "head ref" who decided that ? Was he/she one of the tournament organisers?

Was the RC reported back and so that there was a disciplinary action? Did the player get a ban later ?
Is that not exactly the same as a driver being reported for drink driving or speeding,

The police stopped a driver for:
  • exceeding the speed limit and then immediately afterwards was allowed to carry on driving!
  • Suspicion of being drunk in charge of a car and afterwards, once sober, was allowed to carry on driving!
Until sentence is passed then life goes on.

As a youth I might play up to 3 or 4 games a week, school mid-week, school weekend (Sat morning), club seniors (Sat afternoon), club colts (Sun morning) I am not sure if kids play so many games nowadays. But if i was red carded on a Weds game playing away with the school games master from the other school refereeing it will take a period of time of the report and follow on actions, then my school may want me to play on Sat AM and how would the club know?

Until sentence is passed then life goes on.

Or of course the school may share the opinion that my reckless and dangerous play is not acceptable in the sport and decide that they do not want to be associated with such play and just decide not to select me! So back to discussion between tournament organisers and Team B so they can own their problem child and achieve an outcome that is best for the game
 

crossref


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I don't think it was a school game was it ?

I would be disappointed with any club or school who received a RC and then selected the player to play more games *that same day* .
It would show they don't take RC seriously and it's quite a pointed message at the referee who issued the card

Same for the tournament organisers, very disappointing

In England the player actually CANNOT play until the case we s resolved, so Team B would have been in trouble

Without in any way limiting the effect of Regulation 19.11.16, a Player that is subject
to an ordering off or citing by a Citing Commissioner in a domestic or any other match
is not entitled to play the Game (or any form thereof) or be involved in any on-field
match day activities anywhere in the world until their case has been finally resolved.
For the avoidance of doubt a player cited by an opposition team in matches at National
League Rugby 1 and 2 (formerly Levels 3 and 4) and below and all Women’s matches
(save for Women’s Premier 15s) may play the Game pending the resolution of their
case.
 
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Marc Wakeham


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But was it a red card offence or did the ref on the day make a significant error of judgment, off track but there is lots of commentary.

However, if due process is not in place or has not been followed, how do you unpick that later?
That is a different issue. It would be no different to a red card issued within an actual tournament game. We issue the card and the "DC" deals with the sanction. I guess it is possible at any tournament for a card to be overturned. and the player be allowed to continue. For me there would need very good reason (mistake identity Or other refs watching able to give a clearer view point on it).
 
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SimonSmith


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Idk, my perspective is definitely different than yours. You make it sound like the match organizers are a very official authoritative figure of the event. Been playing the sport for 20 years and officiating for 15 of them here in the states (all different divisions) and the match organizers usually aren't anything much more than an assistant coach for the hosting team or the players themselves. Any authoritative decision regarding laws of the game are always handled by the referee / team of referees who are present at the event.
Except Discipline is Regulation 17, and not Law.

And except for the fact that under USA R, tournament organizers MUST appoint someone to handle discipline prior to the tournament.
 

didds

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merely a thought...
WRT the RC and a tournament ban... is there in reality a difference between somebody running 30 yards to kick a prone player in the head, and another, a new player to the game, who got a YC in the first minute for not rolling away when trapped ("shouldnt have been there" etc), and then a 2nd in the 79th minute for being offside when there is a team warning in place ?

not attempting to diminish any potential cheating .
 

SimonSmith


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I believe typically the red card gets reported to the union of where the incident occurred, and then forwarded to the union of which the player belongs. That union will setup a hearing with the player and administer consequences accordingly.
The disciplinary process has already happened. If another DC decides to suspend that player, he has an immediate appeal, and I'd allow it. And before you ask, I've been a Disciplinary Chair, and heard appeals from various Unions. Dismissing a second hearing wouldn't take 30 seconds of brain space, and I have a brain injury.

The processes and rules are there for reasons, and one of them is to stop clusterfucks like this.
 

BikingBud


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I don't think it was a school game was it ?

I would be disappointed with any club or school who received a RC and then selected the player to play more games *that same day* .
It would show they don't take RC seriously and it's quite a pointed message at the referee who issued the card

Same for the tournament organisers, very disappointing

In England the player actually CANNOT play until the case we s resolved, so Team B would have been in trouble

Without in any way limiting the effect of Regulation 19.11.16, a Player that is subject
to an ordering off or citing by a Citing Commissioner in a domestic or any other match
is not entitled to play the Game (or any form thereof) or be involved in any on-field
match day activities anywhere in the world until their case has been finally resolved.
For the avoidance of doubt a player cited by an opposition team in matches at National
League Rugby 1 and 2 (formerly Levels 3 and 4) and below and all Women’s matches
(save for Women’s Premier 15s) may play the Game pending the resolution of their
case.
In England, oh the sunny uplands of the home the RFU where everything is well set and honest!

But anyway, how does that apply to the OP?
This is at an off-season 15s tournament (20-minute halves) in NJ, USA.
The OP offered a situation that was not clear, the locals deferred to the head referee, something that had not occurred as the game was outside the tournament. And the player was allowed to play in the tournament.

That is a different issue. I would be no different to a red card issued within an actual tournament game. We issue the card and the "DC" deals with the sanction. I guess it is possible at any tournament for a card to be overturned. and the player be allowed to continue. For me there would need very good reason (mistake identity Or other refs watching able to give a clearer view point on it).

But we are not discussing things totally within the tournament though.

But if you want to you might consider that the Tournament organisers held a panel to assess the circumstances and the player's conduct and the incident was deemed to be:
brainfart dumbass-ery and not something actually egregious.
And the red card was deemed to be sufficient penalty. See Freddy Steward!

We can again pontificate about the minutiae and consider the value and benefits to the game, to individuals, to society and or be absolutely correct and try to force some process that is laid down in another country and that somebody on a different continent feels should apply locally!
 

crossref


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Not enforcing anything, just expressing disappointment with team B , the "head ref" and the tournament organisers, all of whom failed to take the RC seriously, failed to back up the ref, by allowing a RC player to take part.
 

Balones

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Very messy all round. Learn from it and don’t allow it to happen in future. That’s all you can do at this stage.
 

BikingBud


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Not enforcing anything, just expressing disappointment with team B , the "head ref" and the tournament organisers, all of whom failed to take the RC seriously, failed to back up the ref, by allowing a RC player to take part.
So have a hissy about your own disappointment rather than managing any risk to player safety and welfare and balancing the needs of the game.

New players to the game often have moments of:

brainfart dumbass-ery and not something actually egregious.
Consider the new player full of enthusiasm to be playing a first tournament and getting over excited, bit like a new puppy. They do something stupid (not dangerous or thuggish), they were not aware, they got red card perhaps as the best way to diffuse the situation. They sat out the rest of that game and were then advised by their team mates what they did and how stupid it was. They apologise to their own team, their opponents and the referee (from the friendly). They approach the rest of the tournament impeccably, learn lots more and get a whole load of enjoyment and understanding about the laws and the mutual respect. You know those elements of the Game we all love (y).

We now have a convert to the Game, an ambassador who will encourage others to participate. Team A is then able to fill the fixture in the tourney next time because one person says they all had a hoot and it was proper hard sport, well officiated, well organised and great way to spend a few hours and then have an awesome social.

Or you have your hissy, fail to see the big picture and then complain when the game is dying because players do not understand why people are being so officious and why they lack any empathy with new players who did not get all the laws!

We need empathy in the game to ensure we do not drive people away.

We are all remote and my hypotheses is just that but it would appear it was dealt with, the local officials feel the actions were appropriate.
 

Marc Wakeham


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In England, oh the sunny uplands of the home the RFU where everything is well set and honest!

But anyway, how does that apply to the OP?

The OP offered a situation that was not clear, the locals deferred to the head referee, something that had not occurred as the game was outside the tournament. And the player was allowed to play in the tournament.



But we are not discussing things totally within the tournament though.

But if you want to you might consider that the Tournament organisers held a panel to assess the circumstances and the player's conduct and the incident was deemed to be:

And the red card was deemed to be sufficient penalty. See Freddy Steward!

We can again pontificate about the minutiae and consider the value and benefits to the game, to individuals, to society and or be absolutely correct and try to force some process that is laid down in another country and that somebody on a different continent feels should apply locally!
The debate has moved from the principle of a red card has been issued to "what if the card was "wrong?" So, yes it is different.

In a tournament game a player is sent off. IF the rules are red card = out with no appeal. Then the validity of the card becomes irrelevant (as there is not process to allow it to be challenged) This would not be any different if the game was "unofficial" at the same venue as the tournament.

For me the "brain fart" defence is very limited. A play has a "brain fart" and tip tackles onto the head. No worries let him play againin a hour?

If the ref, on reflection says "I got it wrong" then ok there is a case to review. But be careful. A one day tournement with "reviews" could quickly become a farce.

Incidentally no one is trying to impose "their" way on the USA. We can only answer as to what would apply "here" we don't know how other courtries manage . If the OP wants only to hear the USA viewpoint. This is not the channel to use. We are a world wide grouping.
 
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