Player's view of referees (or Alan Quinlan's anyway!)

Davet

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Questions through captains. But now and again I would talk to players about specifics if they asked, I would also make a point of thanking players when they responded to preventive calls.

It's as much how they ask as anything, and when. His comments about Galway ring a bell.
 

crossref


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I always responded well to a referee who said, “Okay Quinny, calm down.”

hmmm -- in my experience whenever I have seen anyone tell an angry person to 'calm down' it has precisely the reverse effect!
 

crossref


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So much of what quinlan says is about the manner in which a referee speaks to the players, and I think that once a referee achieve a certain basic competence, then it is indeed, very much about the way they speak, and the authority they can achieve from it (in different ways, of course).

Which makes me wonder if french refs are are a very real disadvantage when reffing british players: there's quite a culture clash. I don't mean language, most of them have enough english, I mean culture and style. The way they speak to players is too continental, it just doesn't quite work for anglo saxons.
 

Lex Hipkins

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"Knowing how to play the referee" - Irish times article

_____
 
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Taff


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hmmm -- in my experience whenever I have seen anyone tell an angry person to 'calm down' it has precisely the reverse effect!
Exactly. So it's not just me that thinks that then. :biggrin:
 

Ricardowensleydale

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hmmm -- in my experience whenever I have seen anyone tell an angry person to 'calm down' it has precisely the reverse effect!
I suspect it was the "Quinny" as much as the "calm down" that had the desired effect. The recognition and acknowledgement of the player rather than instruction to calm down.
Imaging if the ref just said "red 6, calm down", or even just pointed and said "calm down"
Outside the rugby field "You. Calm down" is almost invarialbly followed by "F*** O**"
....and agree with Ian Cook...very interesting article.
 
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Davet

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I think the "calm down" depends totally on the way the request is delivered, and the player's trust in the ref that he is prepared to consider comments - but at he right time and when presented in the right way. The waving away and refusal even to listen is very frustrating. Imagine your own personal or work lives if a partner or boss simply waves any comment to wish to make away - effectivley fingers in ears singing "lalalala"

If are going to ask for calm you must be very calm yourself at the time, don't be dismissive in the way you ask, don't issue orders or hector, just be relaxed and calm. A soft answer often turns away wrath.

Oh - and would AQ accept he description "Anglo-Saxon"? Or would that prevent calm?
 

DrSTU


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I think this is the main point that a lot of players should learn:

The yellow cards hadn’t been for foul play, they’d been for breakdown offences that were totally avoidable. I got the message.

Only give away the penalties that matter!
 

Bryan


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An interesting, but not at all surprising read. The prematch chat goes out the window once you've refereed the same teams again and again, and the same players again and again. In particular at the pro level, where they (the teams) know more about you than you do about you! You're developing a relationship (albeit a professional one) over time with these players, who are doing it for their livelihood.

Questions through captains. But now and again I would talk to players about specifics if they asked, I would also make a point of thanking players when they responded to preventive calls.
My view is at the pro-level where it's the same referees again and again, refereeing the same teams again and again, there's a rapport built-up that now allows things "outside the realm of the refereeing mantra" to be used to help better-manage a game.

That being said, the positive re-enforcement is simply not on in the professional arena. It gives the perception that they're "off the hook". If it's going to happen, it's going to happen during major downtime or into the halftime tunnel when the last 10 minutes have been without incident after a barrage of PKs and cards in the 1st half. Otherwise, at their level, I'd shy away from it, whereas in the weeds I think it's appropriate.

So much of what quinlan says is about the manner in which a referee speaks to the players, and I think that once a referee achieve a certain basic competence, then it is indeed, very much about the way they speak, and the authority they can achieve from it (in different ways, of course).

I think that at the top level, referees are aware of whether their communication channel is one of the following:

1. Parent > Child
2. Adult > Adult

BOTH are effective managment tools, but both have to be used under the correct context for them to be effective. Before the game, the "discussion" from Joel Jutdge is very much a Parent > Child discussion with RoG, Stringer, and Quinny. Now, come game time, it could be a lot different. During downtime, Quinny raises an issue with Joel, to which he replies "OK Quinny, I'll have a look, but you need to calm down". Totally different outcome.

Playing the referee, from a players' perspective, helps a lot when they dont act as a petulant Child, but treat the referees as adults.

I could go on for ages about effective communication and the roles of referees in various circumstances based on their desired outcomes, but I'll leave it there. I'm glad I posted here in something worthwhile. There's a thread out there somewhere that needs to die a quick death.
 

DrSTU


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Exactly. Once you get to ref the good teams a few times they know you and you know them. The management challenge changes completely to that of picking out the major stuff as they don't bother doing the minor stuff that they know will draw you into penalising them.

An interesting, but not at all surprising read. The prematch chat goes out the window once you've refereed the same teams again and again, and the same players again and again. In particular at the pro level, where they (the teams) know more about you than you do about you! You're developing a relationship (albeit a professional one) over time with these players, who are doing it for their livelihood.


My view is at the pro-level where it's the same referees again and again, refereeing the same teams again and again, there's a rapport built-up that now allows things "outside the realm of the refereeing mantra" to be used to help better-manage a game.

That being said, the positive re-enforcement is simply not on in the professional arena. It gives the perception that they're "off the hook". If it's going to happen, it's going to happen during major downtime or into the halftime tunnel when the last 10 minutes have been without incident after a barrage of PKs and cards in the 1st half. Otherwise, at their level, I'd shy away from it, whereas in the weeds I think it's appropriate.



I think that at the top level, referees are aware of whether their communication channel is one of the following:

1. Parent > Child
2. Adult > Adult

BOTH are effective managment tools, but both have to be used under the correct context for them to be effective. Before the game, the "discussion" from Joel Jutdge is very much a Parent > Child discussion with RoG, Stringer, and Quinny. Now, come game time, it could be a lot different. During downtime, Quinny raises an issue with Joel, to which he replies "OK Quinny, I'll have a look, but you need to calm down". Totally different outcome.

Playing the referee, from a players' perspective, helps a lot when they dont act as a petulant Child, but treat the referees as adults.

I could go on for ages about effective communication and the roles of referees in various circumstances based on their desired outcomes, but I'll leave it there. I'm glad I posted here in something worthwhile. There's a thread out there somewhere that needs to die a quick death.
 

Dickie E


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Do the/you elite guys switch comfortably between doing elite games and weed games?
 

Phil E


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Always speak how you would like to be spoken to, respect works both ways.
Politeness costs nothing and if a player gets angry, I get even more polite.
 

SimonSmith


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Always speak how you would like to be spoken to, respect works both ways.
Politeness costs nothing and if a player gets angry, I get even more polite.

On occasion, I have to work at being "irate".
My personality profile is such that once I get beyond angry and get to apoplectic, I get very very calm. Players sometimes mistake this for "no biggie".

I think that one of the challenges for referees, as Bryan articulated above, is identifying the dynamic at play and the respective roles. And then fully playing the role.

The psychology of refereeing and man management is a fascinating area - and one that is underserved by training material
 

Dixie


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I thought Quinlan's article demonstrated an interesting duality of thought. It starts off by saying that as a player, he needed referees to engage with his immature emotional indiscipline, and if they didn't, they were responsible for driving him over the edge. He received, processed and reacted to detailed analysis on the referee's propensities, but felt personally slighted when a ref had done his homework on his own propensities as a player. And as for fairness ...

You want to feel there’s a sense of fairness in the game, especially if you’re a blindside like I was who is constantly trying to get your hands on the ball. Backrow guys will always be in amongst it, trying to get turnovers and if you feel like you’re being penalised more than the opposition’s backrow, that’s when you get disheartened. You need to feel one of these decisions is going to go your way, even one you don’t deserve. All of that is totally dependent on your relationship with the referee. If he’s being constantly short with you, if he’s waving you away the whole time, then you’re going to have the attitude that this guy isn’t going to give us a thing all day.


In other words: the ref shouldn't ref the offences, but should be even-handed in the dissemination of penalties - evening things up, even (perhaps especially) when not warranted. if he does this, "Quinny" is a happy bunny; if he referees the offences, "Quinny" gets disheartened, loses focus and goes off the deep end. When this happens' it's because he has a "bad referee" who can't treat 30 childish prima donnas as a nursery school teacher would. It's nothing to do with his own lack of professionalism or inability to manage his own character.

He then goes on recognise that when the "emotion" is taken out of the equation, we usually find that the referee acted propery (Rolland) and the gut reaction of the alleged "professionals" is inferior to the considered judgement of the officials (e.g. Rolland, the professional bank manager and sometime referee). In short, the problem with the referees as seen by the players is that they are accurate, in control, but refuse to be swayed by (or even give the impression of being swayed by) the immature rantings of ill-disciplined prima donnas unable to rationalise above the heat of the moment.

Sack the lot of them and replace them with immature emoters prepared to parcel out tit for tat penalties.
 

L'irlandais

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I don't really think we should over-analyse his position. In fairness to Quinny, he gives an honest recollection of his profession career. He himself sees the irony of his remarks.
Again, this must sound pretty ironic coming from me but then again who better to say it?

I look back now and see that at the time, I didn’t realise how important it was to play the referee. I should have been smarter and calmer with them, the momentum of games could have been changed if I had.
Everyone knows flankers are always taking play to the limit of the LoG and beyond. Some folks on here feel that makes them cheats, other idolise players like "Richie" McCaw.
Fair play to the Alan Quinlan for writing openly about the subject.
Most decisions made on a rugby pitch are clear-cut but it’s the ones where there’s a little bit of doubt involved that playing the referee becomes important.
Dixie, I think you are taking him out of context. He has no problems with the referee doing his job. He is clearly refering to decisions, in which referees let emotions cloud their judgement. Before knocking this Munsterman, let's wait and see if an Elite referee will open his heart to us, in the same way ; once he has laid down their whistle.
 

Dixie


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Dixie, I think you are taking him out of context. He has no problems with the referee doing his job. He is clearly refering to decisions, in which referees let emotions cloud their judgement.
Interesting that you should take that impression from the text - I've re-read it with your comments in mind, and can't find anything at all to support your view. It's all about HIS emotions arising from the referee not being swayed by, or not listening to, his moaning. The word "emotion" appears 5 times as follows:

Staying on the right side of the referee was something I always had to battle with but I worked on it and tried to take the emotion out of it as much as I could. Emotion never helps referees and any time they’re judged on an incident where emotions are running high, they’ll rarely come out well from it


The three guys on ITV – Martyn Williams, François Pienaar and Lawrence Dallaglio – all reacted by saying it was a terrible decision and that the referee had ruined the game. It wasn’t until a day later that Pienaar changed his mind. The emotion had gone out of the situation a bit by then, of course.


These referees all got plenty wrong in those games but that shouldn’t matter. You have to take emotion out of it and admit that they were doing what they thought was right at the time.


By contrast, we see the opposite view - Quinlan getting pissed off because it wasn't going all his own way - in numerous excerpts:

Poite sin-binned him against Northampton a couple of years ago at Thomond Park and that annoyed people too.


I never held it against a referee for getting a decision wrong but when they had a really dismissive attitude towards players, that’s when I got annoyed.


And then he’d tell me not to be always getting on to him and to not be getting involved all the time. ... Everybody seemed to find this hilarious but it pissed me off after a while. I hated the idea that referees would be going in with a pre-conceived idea of what sort of player I was.


When I was in the zone, I was a bit mad on the rugby field. I’d get so driven and so full of desire to win and I definitely got fired up too much at times. ... The worst thing that could happen to me in that state of mind would be for a referee to be really short with me. If I felt a referee was talking down to me, it would just drive me even more mad.


Because in the heat of battle, it’s not actually the decision you’re questioning. It’s more that you want a bit of interaction, you want to feel like you’re getting a 50-50 break on the penalty count.


All of that is totally dependent on your relationship with the referee. If he’s being constantly short with you, if he’s waving you away the whole time, then you’re going to have the attitude that this guy isn’t going to give us a thing all day.
 
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