Podcast!

Lee Lifeson-Peart


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
7,804
Post Likes
1,002
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
What's that noise? It sounds a bit like a trumpet!:)

Heeeyyyy are you the best Rugby Coach you can be? Welcome to the Rugby Coach weekly paaadcaaaast....

Nice!

View attachment 3730
 
Last edited:

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,066
Post Likes
1,796
:) :) :)

- - - Updated - - -

yes... the intro is nothing to do with me!

didds
 

leaguerefaus


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
1,009
Post Likes
248
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
I had a listen and was fascinated, as I had rarely considered how much goes into training for scrums (coming from my code, I'm sure this isn't surprising!). Particularly liked the point you made repeatedly that you really don't know the shape / size / type of player a 10-12 year old is going to turn into :)
 

ChrisR

Player or Coach
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
3,231
Post Likes
356
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Enjoyed the listen. Agreed with much of what was said (at least what you said, didds). Also agree that scrums need to stay as part of the game if for no other reason than to employ those less fleet of foot and to create the variable shapes of the game.

I'd like to see more small sides on smaller pitches. Until age 16 ten-a-side on a half pitch would create a better experience.
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,066
Post Likes
1,796
To be fair to Dan, the questions are asked in a manner to create debate rather than sycophancy :)

he might be along here soon - you never know!

didds
 

Camquin

Rugby Expert
Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
1,653
Post Likes
310
ChrisR

In England Boys play 15 a side full pitch at u14, 13 a side 90x60m at u13, 10 a side half pitch at u12.
I am sure our Antipodean cousins will say that is too much cotton wool.

Girls play 10 a side at u13, 13 a side until 15 and 15 a side thereafter - if they have the numbers.

So not quite as restricted as you suggest.

I tend to agree that there is little to be gained playing on a full pitch and everyone else watching the winger repeatedly sprint 40m to the line,
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,811
Post Likes
3,148
But I wouldn't want to see 30 u16s playing on half a pitch ..
 

ChrisR

Player or Coach
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
3,231
Post Likes
356
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
No, I said 10 a side. Point being that players get more touches on the ball with less players and still plenty of contact.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,811
Post Likes
3,148
No, I said 10 a side. Point being that players get more touches on the ball with less players and still plenty of contact.

you would need more teams, more refs, more coaches, more pitch space -- We had 40ish players in our u16.. Running a A and B team they all got game time.. not sure we had the resurces to divide them into A B and C (and the C team, with the ten worst players would have been pretty difficult to manage, and develop players in)


But look we all agree on the principle
- youngsters play on small pitches with much <15 a side
- adults play on full size pitches with 15
- there's a gradual transition

I'd say by u16 they are playing the adult game, you place it older.
 
Last edited:

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,066
Post Likes
1,796
ChrisR

In England Boys play 15 a side full pitch at u14, 13 a side 90x60m at u13, 10 a side half pitch at u12.
I am sure our Antipodean cousins will say that is too much cotton wool.

Girls play 10 a side at u13, 13 a side until 15 and 15 a side thereafter - if they have the numbers.

So not quite as restricted as you suggest.

I tend to agree that there is little to be gained playing on a full pitch and everyone else watching the winger repeatedly sprint 40m to the line,

I can recall a watching an early sdeason 13 a side match on a full size pitch a few years ago.

At a lineout the wingers were in line with the goal post on the lineout side...

didds
 
Last edited:

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,066
Post Likes
1,796
No, I said 10 a side. Point being that players get more touches on the ball with less players and still plenty of contact.

I get what ChrisR is saying, and even agree with some of it.

The one thing that doesn;t quite gel with me is that at U12 there ate 2 x 12 (6 forwards, 6 backs) a side on a half sized pitch, played across the pitch" and there is just no space for anybody to do anything. I'm not sure dropping a blind side wing and a back row forward really increases that.



this isn't to knock Chris's idea at all becaue I think it has lots of merit, but i would say its needs a little more than that ha;f a pitch. And now you run into space issues and dedicated U13/U14 sized pitches (say) that struggle to be used by anybody else.

So you end up with U13s on a pitch that is WAY to huge for them, or they end up playing all but 7s on half a pitch (cos 12 a side is too "busy") with maybe 9 a side. Its a tough call.

I can think of a sort of compromise - but its probably complicating factors too much (smaller marked pitch in eg red lines situated within the full size one, with all conversions taken in front of the nearest posts, no 3 point PKs. Its just more work for the groundsman.)

didds

- - - Updated - - -

and the C team, with the ten worst players

why would the C team HAVE to have the ten worst players?

didds
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,066
Post Likes
1,796
I'd say by u16 they are playing the adult game, you place it older.

Yup, agree. In effect the only difference is

* scrum push limited to 1.5m
* no squeezeball

U16s can handle a full sized pitch easily. and our U14s can to be honest. our U14 #10 can restart drop kick deep into the oppo 22m - that's unusual for this age group admittedly, but space usage isn;t much different from what I expect senior players to use.

didds

didds
 

ChrisR

Player or Coach
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
3,231
Post Likes
356
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
you would need more teams, more refs, more coaches, more pitch space -- We had 40ish players in our u16.. Running a A and B team they all got game time.. not sure we had the resurces to divide them into A B and C (and the C team, with the ten worst players would have been pretty difficult to manage, and develop players in)

Field space, and lining the pitches, is the only real difficulty.

When you start working with smaller groups you will find that more people get involved.
Shorter games with fewer players on small pitches means that old guys like me can still be effective refs.

Working out the logistics is just that: Working out the logistics.

The net result is more touches per player per game and that's the big plus. Having the Cs play Cs also gets players actively involved in the game that would otherwise just follow the mob.

The resistance to this? Tradition and coaches and parents egos. I've heard it all before as "It's not real rugby" or, in my case "It's not real soccer". The latter when I took over my kids soccer club, abolished 11-a-side for 6 yrs old and instituted 4-a-side with tiny goals on tiny fields with no rules.

Agree that at 16 kids could, and probably should, be playing 15s on a full pitch. However, their skill development occurs (or should) well before then and that's the value of small sided.
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,066
Post Likes
1,796
Amen Chris. Despite my caveats earlier I do wholeheartedly concur.

didds
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,066
Post Likes
1,796
Current RFU regs for U13s include

Team numbers: a maximum of 13-a-side
Maximum pitch size: 90 metres x 60 metres

I'd wager quite a few U13s teams play on (slightly) bigger pitches then that, if only because their seniors play on pitches that are 100m x 70m.

WRT to smaller pitches and groundsmen... It can;t be THAT difficult with the aid of some suitably bright cones to define the playing pitch as being bounded by the 5m and 15m lines (or if that's too small the 5m and 5m lines and a suitable in goal area marked with cones within that. All conversions taken either in front of existing posts wherever the kicker feels confortable, defenders behindf the "full" goalline. Or, as normal even with defenders behind the "full goalline" ignoring the exiustence of the "short" goaline if realy necessary (I can;t think when it might be).

didds
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,811
Post Likes
3,148
We have small pitches and reduced numbers for young kids (and good thing too) . I am sure we all agree with that.

I think we all agree also that u16 should be playing 15 a side on full size pitches , as indeed is the case in every country I think
 

menace


Referees in Australia
Joined
Nov 20, 2009
Messages
3,657
Post Likes
633
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
ChrisR

In England Boys play 15 a side full pitch at u14, 13 a side 90x60m at u13, 10 a side half pitch at u12.
I am sure our Antipodean cousins will say that is too much cotton wool.

Girls play 10 a side at u13, 13 a side until 15 and 15 a side thereafter - if they have the numbers.

So not quite as restricted as you suggest.

I tend to agree that there is little to be gained playing on a full pitch and everyone else watching the winger repeatedly sprint 40m to the line,

Nah..the cotton wool is all used up on thr lineout jumpers!!:biggrin::biggrin::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I actually like that....it would help here to put more teams in the comps and if all laws stay put then its still rugby and a good stepping to 15s.
Our 12s is 12 per side...i think that should extend to 13s and maybe even 14s.
 
Last edited:

Jolly Roger


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
210
Post Likes
66
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
Really interesting discussion, Didds. Thanks for posting, and I agree with all that you said on the pod.

Having been involved in youth rugby from U9-U18 as a coach and referee over the past 8 years, in addition to adult refereeing, I would add that scrummaging is an integral part of the game of Rugby Union and that many young players identify with a particular scum position and want to scrummage. That is not necessarily the same requirement as coaching the scrum in a competitive manner. However, as we now have leagues in Scotland from U14 upwards, the competitiveness of the scrum increases accordingly as we go up through the age groups. That is not to say that there is no room to introduce players to new positions; this is just a coaching requirement, as you so clearly explained.

My personal view is that scrummaging is important part of the sport from U12 onwards as a means of developing game shape and enabling youngsters to identify with the game of rugby. It then starts to become slightly technical from U14 and increases year on year until we reach U18 when some technical cometence is necessary to compete safely. I think that the national bodies seem to have it about right now.
 
Top