[Law] Posession After Stoppage in Play

[IdrisDragon]

Odd one from last Saturday and interested to know what others would have done:

Blue kick ball through from the half way line.

Ball bounces about 5 m from 22 and Red 15 decides to fly hack the ball. He, somewhat amazingly, makes amazing contact with the ball and it flies off the foot... directly into the face of the oncoming Blue kick chaser who is knocked out.

Play is immediately stopped. Blue player was ok after the game but was removed from the field of play for obvious reasons.

Restart with a scrummage, but who do you award the throw in to?

 

[Phil E]

Law 19

Stoppage due to injury results in a scrum at the point where the ball was last played.
The team last in possession get the put in.

So Red put in where he kicked it.

Getting smacked in the face doesn't count as possession :biggrin:

 

[crossref]

But it does count as played
Shouldn't the place scrum be where he was hit in the face ?

And I am not sure if he shouldn't get the put in as well? Does a fly hack count as possession ? I don't think so

 

[ChrisR]

From the last entry in the 2018 scrum 'where & who' table:

[LAWS]The team that was last moving forward or, if neither team was moving forward, the attacking team.

[/LAWS]

Looks like face-blocker earned his side a srum.

 

[didds]

I think this is a perfect example mof sell whatever you decide.

given it was a fly hack - is that "possession".
Given the blue guy got hit in the face involuntarily is that possession?

If both snasers are "no" (and my gut reaction is that that is the case) the the last team in posession is blue who kicked the ball initially from the half way line. So that would be a blue put in

as to where the scrum is ... well, clearly the red fly hacker did play the ball. Whether an involuntary smash in the place counts as playing the ball is a moot point, oft debated in other areas here.

On the grounds of equtry (remember that?) it would seem harsh to "penalise" red by playing the blue scrum closest to red's goal line simply because by fluke it hit blue in the manner it did.

We can pontificate that red should have fielded the ball and hoofed it from hand etc etc etc but ultimately he is permitted to fly hack it (assuming this game wasn't age grade etc obvs) so its as legitimate.

But - again - just sell it. Nobody is going to be able to reason anything differently with any absolute definitive reason.

didds

 

[crossref]

Agree
For me if you are chasing a loose ball you are trying to play it (not with your nose, granted)
If you were looking up field and a ball kicked by your own 15 hits you in the back of the head .. you didn't play it

 

[ChrisR]

It doesn't matter who last played it. Read the law in post #4 or, for those ignoring 2018 Laws, here it is from 2017:

[LAWS]20.4 (d) Scrum after any other stoppage. After any other stoppage or irregularity not covered by Law , the team that was moving forward before the stoppage throws in the ball. If neither team was moving forward , the attacking team throws in the ball.
[/LAWS]

If the player in possession is being driven toward his own goal when play gets stopped his side does not get the scrum feed.

In this scenario it may be hard to determine who is going forward but the 'attacking team' is Blue as they are playing in Red's half.

 

[crossref]

Chris this isn't any other stoppage.. it's stoppage due to injury , a few rows above

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

This is clearly a case for Rock, Paper, Scissors

 

[ChrisR]

Thanx, crossref, I don't think that the difference (between 'injury' and 'any other reason') was in the 2017 Laws. Another difference unless someone can point it out in the 2017s.

Nevertheless, unless fly hacking or getting smacked in the face can be classified as 'possession' it will still be Blue's feed.

 

[beckett50]

[LAWS]The team that was last moving forward or, if neither team was moving forward, the attacking team.

[/LAWS]

Looks like face-blocker earned his side a srum.

ChrisR I fail to see how the actions of the "face-blocker" can be deemed to be make his team the attacking team? Red, as per the OP, had fly hacked through and were chasing toward Blue goal-line. The Blue player was defender in my book. A "face-block" is not classed as possession

Either way; restart with "Scrum, Red ball" - easy sell and correct in Law.

 

[thepercy]

ChrisR I fail to see how the actions of the "face-blocker" can be deemed to be make his team the attacking team? Red, as per the OP, had fly hacked through and were chasing toward Blue goal-line. The Blue player was defender in my book. A "face-block" is not classed as possession

Either way; restart with "Scrum, Red ball" - easy sell and correct in Law.

It has nothing to do with the man being falconed. The 'attacking team' is defined as the opposition to the team in whose half play is taking place.

 

[crossref]

What a great question .. as half of you have the Law wrong..

The relevant law is

[LAWS]Law 19

Stoppage due to injury results in a scrum at the point where the ball was last played.
The team last in possession get the put in.[/LAWS]

I think Chris is correct .. this is a new law in the 2018 book ? Unless anyone can see other wise

 

[didds]

What a great question .. as half of you have the Law wrong..

The relevant law is

[LAWS]Law 19

Stoppage due to injury results in a scrum at the point where the ball was last played.
The team last in possession get the put in.[/LAWS]

i the crus here is what deems "played"? The fly hack is definitely played.

A smash in the face totally involuntarily though?

That's the rub.

this is a new law in the 2018 book ? Unless anyone can see other wise

but It can't be a new law. WR says there are no changes form 2017?

didds

 

[crossref]

I can't help but smile at the irony .. Phil E inadvertently applying the 2018 Law , while ChrisR inadvertently applied the Law as it stood in 2017

I now pass the conch to Marc who will explain how this Law hasn't really changed ...

 

[ChrisR]

ChrisR I fail to see how the actions of the "face-blocker" can be deemed to be make his team the attacking team? Red, as per the OP, had fly hacked through and were chasing toward Blue goal-line. The Blue player was defender in my book. A "face-block" is not classed as possession

Either way; restart with "Scrum, Red ball" - easy sell and correct in Law.

Per the OP the ball was kicked by Blue from half way to near the 22 where Red fly hacked it into a Blue face. So it was in Red's half so Blue was attacking, therefore Blue feed.

However, that was 2017 Law. Now we have a specific 2018 Law to determine scrum feed on an injury and it goes to last team in possession.

"Possession" defined in 2018:

Possession: An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it under control.

Fly hack and playing with your face not considered control in my book. So, feed to Blue assuming Blue actually had control of the ball when he kicked it.

 

[VM75]

Whoever last played the ball [ie, the facial 'charge down'] has a greater claim that they were in possession than someone who played it earlier in the sequence, surely?

 

[Pinky]

I don't think a fly hack or a face charge is in possession, there is not enough control by either team for that for me. Fly hack was definitely played, I would need to see the face charge to determine if I thought it was a charge down gone wrong (played) or a fluke. For me it is a blue scrum. I would have wrongly awarded that on the basis they were the attacking team (and probably going forward at the most recent and relevant passage of play. However I would have been correct to award a blue scrum as they were the team last in possession.

 

[chbg]

I would consider a fly-hack to have exerted some deliberate control over where the ball was intended to travel. Being hit by the ball is not deliberate control.

So Red Scrum for me. Good question to bring out the "stoppage due to injury" re-start.

 

[crossref]

[LAWS]Possession: An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it
under control[/LAWS]

I don't think a fly hack counts as being in possession