Positioning quandry

[Dave Sherwin]

This is one I have been thinking about for nearly 18 months. In the 2013 NACRA final, USA had a five metre attacking scrum roughly half-way between the right-hand upright and the right-hand 15 metre-line (for all purposes, I am imagining that we are viewing things from behind the USA team). The put-in, clearly, was to the left of the scrum and I positioned myself in the vicinity of the scrum-halves. Once the put-in was complete, I took my usual 45-degree line back and to MY right, ending up roughly in line with the back foot of the scrum and at sufficient distance (given my 5'8" stature) to view the Trinidad and Tobago blindside flanker's bind over the top of the scrum. USA get their tighthead up a foot or so, No.8 picks and goes blind. Not wanting to be unsighted in the event of a tackle made my the T+T blindside flanker or 8, I don't feel I can go round the back (T+T side) of the scrum, so in the end follow the 8 round the back (USA side) of the scrum. No 8's carry is strong, T+T 6 and 8 fall off him/ are carried with him and he crashes over to score. No doubt about the try and I can give it without difficulty. However, in post-match analysis with the (then) IRB ref coach, it was suggested (correctly in my mind) that chasing the 8 over the line was hardly ideal. I've tried all sorts of other positions whenever this scenario has subsequently arisen (obviously it doesn't crop up in every game) and never quite got happy with any of them. Any suggestions?

 

[Browner]

Dave,

I posed virtually the same question for a similar "quandary" in my post #12 of this thread. ....

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread...ink-otherwise-trust-your-instincts&highlight=

So have a browse through it to see if any of the advice offered helps you to end your 18mths of sleepless nights

 

[didds]

what did the IRB ref coach suggest woud be better?

Oh - he didn't?

funny that....

;-)

didds

 

[Dave Sherwin]

Dave,

I posed virtually the same question for a similar "quandary" in my post #12 of this thread. ....

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread...ink-otherwise-trust-your-instincts&highlight=

So have a browse through it to see if any of the advice offered helps you to end your 18mths of sleepless nights

Thank you for the x-reference, but it seems most people ended up discussing knock-ons in goal!

 

[Dave Sherwin]

what did the IRB ref coach suggest woud be better?

Oh - he didn't?

funny that....

;-)

didds

Confirmed. I asked the question straight up and it was suggested I watch the video and think about it. I still am.

 

[Adam]

So you had sight of the ball from the base of the scrum, continued to have sight of it, and were in a position to spot a potential last pass as forward, and then you saw it grounded?

 

[Dave Sherwin]

Arguably lost sight of it whilst 8s body was directly between myself and the goal line as I was working to get round to his outside. Would have not been level with the ball to assess forward pass, but then that is not always the case in any event. By the time he grounded I was probably a metre to his right and two metres behind - I clearly saw the ball grounded, but had he turned his body to the left in the act of scoring, I would have certainly not had sight. As mentioned, I wholly agree that I ended up in a less than ideal position (I'd have loved to be a metre in goal with him crashing over in front of me) but not sure how to get there bearing the other factors in mind (policing the feed, base of the scrum, blind-side flanker bind (admit this can be handled to some extent be AR), desire to observe any tackle/ruck developing on far side of scrum where defending 6 might be expected to make the tackle). It's a very specific location and combination of circumstances and I don't feel I've cracked the code.

 

[Adam]

How about ensure you get to the blind side of the potential tackle? From the sounds of things you stayed scrum side?

 

[Dave Sherwin]

That's certainly where I was aiming for (blind side of the potential tackle), hence why I ended up to his right as he went over, but quick ball and an 8 pick going away from you means you'd have to be moving like lightning to get all the way round the outside of the potential tackle and still end up in goal at the same time as (or ahead of) the 8. I think the reality of taking the route round the back of the attacking side is that you would always end up chasing the 8 in, whilst going round the back of the defending side leave you exposed to an effective defensive tackle by the 6/8. I suspect it is the starting position which is the issue, but other alternatives I have tried seem to come with their own disadvantages.

 

[Adam]

Starting position-wise I would probably be getting to behind the 8 at the time he was picking the ball up.

 

[Dave Sherwin]

OK, so after policing the feed from the usual spot and backing out the three or four steps at a 45 degree angle, then moving across to directly behind 8, trusting speed to take you round the outside of a potential tackle (assuming he may still go either way from that spot)?

 

[Adam]

OK, so after policing the feed from the usual spot and backing out the three or four steps at a 45 degree angle, then moving across to directly behind 8, trusting speed to take you round the outside of a potential tackle (assuming he may still go either way from that spot)?

Maybe?

 

[Dave Sherwin]

Well, in the absence of other suggestions, I'll certainly give it a run next time!

 

[menace]

I think you were damned if you do and damned if you don't. Had you not followed the #8 around but rather cut straight through to In-goal then the assessor would probably have criticised you for taking the 'fat mans' line and potentially missing an offence at a breakdown on the blind side. So based on your original starting position I think your choice was ok. Perhaps he was intimating that getting in-goal to get a better view was preferable than being behind the #8 and more likely to be obscured from seeing a proper grounding? (Noting that your ARs have touch line covered). I guess in that context what's more important, missing the grounding for try or missing 1st offence if a breakdown occured? Which is more critical? Now that I've written it out, I think cutting through to in goal was the better option as anything that happened on the blind side would have been covered by the AR. In my mind it's the lesser of the 2 evils in that situation.

The only other option as I see it at the field position was to start on the blind side (which I personally prefer to mange the offside though at 25m out not at a 5m scrum!). Chances were you'd expect them to go open side but being on the blind would still allow you to make up that distance to 'be there' if they did go open (I assume you have a sprint gear!), but also allows you to 'be there' if they did go blind side but enough room to be out of the way. Perhaps he was intimating this?

In the end you got the right decision so it doesn't really matter and the assessor IMO was just being pinickity (is that a word?)

 

[Jacko]

This is one I have been thinking about for nearly 18 months. In the 2013 NACRA final, USA had a five metre attacking scrum roughly half-way between the right-hand upright and the right-hand 15 metre-line (for all purposes, I am imagining that we are viewing things from behind the USA team). The put-in, clearly, was to the left of the scrum and I positioned myself in the vicinity of the scrum-halves. Once the put-in was complete, I took my usual 45-degree line back and to MY right, ending up roughly in line with the back foot of the scrum and at sufficient distance (given my 5'8" stature) to view the Trinidad and Tobago blindside flanker's bind over the top of the scrum. USA get their tighthead up a foot or so, No.8 picks and goes blind. Not wanting to be unsighted in the event of a tackle made my the T+T blindside flanker or 8, I don't feel I can go round the back (T+T side) of the scrum, so in the end follow the 8 round the back (USA side) of the scrum. No 8's carry is strong, T+T 6 and 8 fall off him/ are carried with him and he crashes over to score. No doubt about the try and I can give it without difficulty. However, in post-match analysis with the (then) IRB ref coach, it was suggested (correctly in my mind) that chasing the 8 over the line was hardly ideal. I've tried all sorts of other positions whenever this scenario has subsequently arisen (obviously it doesn't crop up in every game) and never quite got happy with any of them. Any suggestions?

You're always likely to be in a poor position to see the grounding when someone scores a try where, all things being equal, the defender should have stopped him. In this specific incident, when USA get right side up, you need to realise the 8 is likely to go blind so move tighter to the back of the USA scrum ready follow him. Cutting round the back of the T+T scrum is a rubbish option, as if T+T does his job you would be in all sorts of trouble. Just follow it in quickly and hope to get lucky. AR could well be able to assist.

 

[Phil E]

Without ARs I would have followed your line, and the ball, aiming to get outside the 8 and into in-goal (45 degrees to his front right) as he came over the line.
However the position I would have ended up in, should be where your AR would be standing, giving you the luxury of mirroring him infield.

I definitely wouldn't take the lazy route to the left of the scrum as this denies you any opportunity to spot a knock on, or forward pass, and can end up in you losing the ball completely.

 

[Accylad]

I had this exact situation at the start of the season. Second teams of Nat 1 sides. As the fella crashed over the line with two bodies all over him the ball was far (post side) of my position and I was not fast enough to get goal side and I just saw the ball shoot forward into in goal. NO grounding seen, strong possibility of lost forward in tackle. No AR's of course.

Time was dead, end of the game, team who had just "failed to score" lost when try would have taken them into the lead. Much approbation of the referee for not seeing the try scored. Last 5 seconds of the match aside I know I had had a good match. BUT critical incident and feelings of failure....

Been going over and over in my mind how I could have done better since September. Lazy route would have cut 3/4 metres of distance and I would probably have seen the grounding or non grounding, but it always felt the wrong route for the reasons already raised.

Thank you contributors - I think I will be able, finally, to lay this ghost as one of those "sh1t happens" moments....

 

[didds]

It's a very specific location and combination of circumstances and I don't feel I've cracked the code.

And I suspect the IRB ref advisor doesn't know either Dave, but you already know that.

didds

 

[Browner]

Thank you for the x-reference, but it seems most people ended up discussing knock-ons in goal!

Yep,
(or 'off topic' as some would say :shrug

I'm kinda suggesting that there isn't much advise anyone can realistically offer other than run quicker than Colin Jackson over 15 Meters! So cease your mind wrestling about it, it'll happen again one day soon.

Didds has nailed it.

 

[Browner]

I had this exact situation at the start of the season. Second teams of Nat 1 sides. As the fella crashed over the line with two bodies all over him the ball was far (post side) of my position and I was not fast enough to get goal side and I just saw the ball shoot forward into in goal. NO grounding seen, strong possibility of lost forward in tackle. No AR's of course.

Time was dead, end of the game, team who had just "failed to score" lost when try would have taken them into the lead. Much approbation of the referee for not seeing the try scored. Last 5 seconds of the match aside I know I had had a good match. BUT critical incident and feelings of failure....

Been going over and over in my mind how I could have done better since September. Lazy route would have cut 3/4 metres of distance and I would probably have seen the grounding or non grounding, but it always felt the wrong route for the reasons already raised.

Thank you contributors - I think I will be able, finally, to lay this ghost as one of those "sh1t happens" moments....

Accylad,
Hereafter, im going to take the lazy route, coz anything else I miss in doing that isn't ' AS critical' as missing a 'game deciding' grounding.
Your post .:clap: has actually convinced me that for these very specific set of circumstances I should 'gamble' because the reward of getting 'the most' Critical view outweighs any other considerations.

Least until someone comes up with a better plan for me to reverse this thinking.

( PS... Oops just spotted menace says the same... ish)