Premiership final

[crossref]

I am not sure what Marc is on about.

where I am every division of the Merit Tables finished the season with games uncompleted . The completion directors sort something out

We have two up two down relegation/promotion
The team finishing top gets promoted by right, there is a play off for the second spot. That's the compromise they came to

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Replays occur on various days. Usually midweek but it depends on availability and other considerations. Again all in the planning.

Promotion and relegation makes the season inportand for longer foall all the teams not just those who have a change of getting into the playoffs.

Anyway promotion and relegation exist in Australian sport (eg football) Albeit not univerally. So, it is not a NH / Aussie issue.

 

[OB..]

I am not sure what Marc is on about.

where I am every division of the Merit Tables finished the season with games uncompleted . The completion directors sort something out

We have two up two down relegation/promotion
The team finishing top gets promoted by right, there is a play off for the second spot. That's the compromise they came to

In Gloucestershire Merit Tables, if teams do not play a game without a valid reason (eg weather) they both lose points.

Fortunately there is enough slack in the system that matches can be played if teams really want to.

We also have two up/two down as a means of re-ordering the teams for next season, but since the teams entering change from one year to the next, that can then get superseded by the need to provide sensible league structures.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Agreed OB. Of course some games will be left unplayed, for example if they have no bearing on the relegation or promotion or titles issues. The norm is they are replayed or the teams are subject to foreit.

 

[TigerCraig]

Replays occur on various days. Usually midweek but it depends on availability and other considerations. Again all in the planning.

Promotion and relegation makes the season inportand for longer foall all the teams not just those who have a change of getting into the playoffs.

Anyway promotion and relegation exist in Australian sport (eg football) Albeit not univerally. So, it is not a NH / Aussie issue.

No professional sport in australia has pro/rel. It exists at a very limited level in some amateur sport but is based on things other than results.

My club could win our comp in sydney suburan rugby 6 years running and would stay where we are

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I think I said "not universally". However it does exist. So some sports manage to overcome these "massive problems"!

 

[TigerCraig]

I think I said "not universally". However it does exist. So some sports manage to overcome these "massive problems"!

I dont get your point? What are the problems? The winner of our league is the winner of the last playoff game.

Promotion/relegation where it exists is not based on that. Its based on how many teams you field, ground facilities, location and finances. We dont need to catch up washouts vecause generally the best teams will make the playoffs regardless.

The last 2 teams admitted to the soccer A League were not promoted, they were artificial newly created clubs, as will be the next 2. When Penrith were admitted to thr Shute Shield rugby comp it was to get a team from western sydney, not because they were any good. Now they have been kicked out, but no other club was promoted. The top team in Suburban rugby Div One didnt take their place

Our system us much more like US baseball. Small clubs are feeders to large ones, not competitors

 

[Dickie E]

I dont get your point? What are the problems? The winner of our league is the winner of the last playoff game.

Promotion/relegation where it exists is not based on that. Its based on how many teams you field, ground facilities, location and finances. We dont need to catch up washouts vecause generally the best teams will make the playoffs regardless.

The last 2 teams admitted to the soccer A League were not promoted, they were artificial newly created clubs, as will be the next 2. When Penrith were admitted to thr Shute Shield rugby comp it was to get a team from western sydney, not because they were any good. Now they have been kicked out, but no other club was promoted. The top team in Suburban rugby Div One didnt take their place

Our system us much more like US baseball. Small clubs are feeders to large ones, not competitors

Aussie Rules at a community level in Melbourne has promotion/relegation. The 2 grand finalists go up, 2 cellar dwellers go down.

 

[TigerCraig]

Aussie Rules at a community level in Melbourne has promotion/relegation. The 2 grand finalists go up, 2 cellar dwellers go down.

Yes, that's true, but only within the VAFA. They cant go up to VFL or AFL. I understand there are still eligibility rules too, so clubs can be refused promotion.

Sydney Subbies rugby technically has pro/rel (but not to Shute Shield) but its not automatic - and not based just on the 1st XV result.

Like I said my club plays in 6th Division, and although some 6th Division clubs would beat those in 4th or even 3rd Division they will never be promoted, because 6th Div is for clubs with only 1 senior team. To get to 3rd Division or higher would require fielding 3 or 4 senior teams plus Colts as well as ground improvements

 

[Marc Wakeham]

So, AMAZINGLY, Austrslia can fit does understand promotion and relegation. As I said. Who would have thought it?

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I dont get your point? What are the problems? The winner of our league is the winner of the last playoff game.

Promotion/relegation where it exists is not based on that. Its based on how many teams you field, ground facilities, location and finances. We dont need to catch up washouts vecause generally the best teams will make the playoffs regardless.

The last 2 teams admitted to the soccer A League were not promoted, they were artificial newly created clubs, as will be the next 2. When Penrith were admitted to thr Shute Shield rugby comp it was to get a team from western sydney, not because they were any good. Now they have been kicked out, but no other club was promoted. The top team in Suburban rugby Div One didnt take their place

Our system us much more like US baseball. Small clubs are feeders to large ones, not competitors

The problems with having promotion and relegation and making the league systen fair to achieve that. Amazing.

 

[TigerCraig]

So, AMAZINGLY, Austrslia can fit does understand promotion and relegation. As I said. Who would have thought it?

Sigh, as I said back in post 45 pro/rel exists in some amateur leagues, not entirely based on on-field results, but not in pro leagues. Unlike in other countries there is no way Lower Nowhere United could in time progress from a pub league to the Premier League. Pro and elite Leagues are closed shops, like in the US..

To use the Premier League example, here the top league would say to Aston Villa, well done lads hope you have another good season in the Championship next year, meanwhile we will bring in a newly created expansion team from somewhere else that is a better market for us.

 

[Arabcheif]

This quasi promotion/relegation seems a bit strange to me. There seems to be little point to play 9 teams that you can beat easily 99% of the time. I understand needing to have a set criteria to ensure the Club has the infrastructure to cope with the required pressures of game day. EG In Scotland the SPFL (Football/soccer) have min stadia requirements, and other criteria to ensure the quality of that product. So, I get that a team might be denied promotion to on those grounds, but I suggest that there isn't really that much difference in TigerCraig's 6th division than the ones in the 4th and 3rd divisions. Having the requirement to run multiple teams seams daft to me. It should be based solely on that teams ability.

As you progress to a higher level you attract more attention. More attention means (most of the time), more people come to watch. Then if you get to another higher level then you'd attract yet more attention and higher crowds. Therefore become more lucrative to the elite league. I mean who's better, a team in the Championship who sell out there 35000 stadium or a team at the bottom of the elite (prem) who's 50000 stadium is always half full at best. Also gives the players something to aim towards.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Sigh, as I said back in post 45 pro/rel exists in some amateur leagues, not entirely based on on-field results, but not in pro leagues. Unlike in other countries there is no way Lower Nowhere United could in time progress from a pub league to the Premier League. Pro and elite Leagues are closed shops, like in the US..

To use the Premier League example, here the top league would say to Aston Villa, well done lads hope you have another good season in the Championship next year, meanwhile we will bring in a newly created expansion team from somewhere else that is a better market for us.

I know that!

We were also discussing in the contest that you (Australia) seems unable to rearrange postponed games. I fail to understand why that is. A little planning and you could achieve a fair system. Obviously the Aussie world is far more rigid than the general image of "easy going and let it flow".

As Arabchief says, you are denying sides the incentive to striveto better themselves pinning then down in a backwater. That seems a shame. Who wants to playing a league where on side is constantly paired above its ability. Still I'm sure it works for you.

I'm not too sure that Autralian rugby is being well marketed at the moment. So, maybe not!

 

[TigerCraig]

So, I get that a team might be denied promotion to on those grounds, but I suggest that there isn't really that much difference in TigerCraig's 6th division than the ones in the 4th and 3rd divisions. Having the requirement to run multiple teams seams daft to me. It should be based solely on that teams ability.

I think this is at the nub of it. We think in terms of CLUBS, not TEAMS, esp in rugby & cricket

If we take rugby as an example, my understanding is that in the UK a clubs 1st, 2nd and 3rd XV's are pretty much seperate entities who play in different leagues against different opposition. In this case team pro/rel is possible.

Here we play as clubs. So for example Second Division clubs City and United will play. Their 3rd XV's will play each other at 12 noon, followed by 2nds at 1.30pm, followed by 1sts at 3pm. Players from lower grades will sit on the bench for higher grades

If City's 2nds win their premiership at the end of the year they cant be promoted, as there is nowhere to promote them to. City already have a team in First Grade. Just say City win the First Grade premiership - promote them to First Division you say, but what the Union will look at is how competitive their 2nd and 3rd grade teams are as well, as all three teams will need to go up to First Division.

If my 6th Division team was promoted to 5th Division, then the 5th Division clubs 2nd XV's would have no one to play against each week.

A couple of years ago we were actually invited to go up to 3rd Division and to play in the 4th grade slot of another club that was anticipated to be struggling for numbers. We declined as (a) we would have to play at 11am, (b) We would smash 3rd Division 4th Grade teams and (c) we would never have home games as the opposition clubs wouldn't agree to send 3 teams to one clubs ground and 1 team to our ground

And of course pro/elite leagues are closed shops. In the case of rugby league and aussie rules their "reserves" teams generally play in the state leagues, often under different names - like the US baseball "farm" system

 

[TigerCraig]

I know that!

We were also discussing in the contest that you (Australia) seems unable to rearrange postponed games. I fail to understand why that is. A little planning and you could achieve a fair system. Obviously the Aussie world is far more rigid than the general image of "easy going and let it flow".

As Arabchief says, you are denying sides the incentive to striveto better themselves pinning then down in a backwater. That seems a shame. Who wants to playing a league where on side is constantly paired above its ability. Still I'm sure it works for you.

I'm not too sure that Autralian rugby is being well marketed at the moment. So, maybe not!

We can and do rearrange postponed games at higher senior level, and if clubs can be bothered in lower senior level (if a first round game is washed out team will often just play for double points in the return game), but rarely if ever in juniors.

 

[Arabcheif]

The team I play for only have 1 team. There's another semi local Club that has 3 teams, these 3 teams all play in different divisions. This means that there's always opponents. I get that Aus is much bigger but I'm guessing that there will be regional leagues. Why not just mix it up So lets say you have 12 Clubs, 6 have 4 teams (24), 2 have 3 teams (6), 2 have 2 teams (4) and the other 2 only have 1 team each. This gives 36 team if my maths is right.

This means that the Div 1 team will always be the 6 teams that have 4 XVs they might have absolute rubbish teams that get beat every week, a Div 1 to me should be the best teams, not the biggest clubs. You could have 3 divisions of 12 Div 1 can have the 1XVs from each team. Could have everyone's 1st XV in Div 1, all 2nd XVs + 2 - 3rd XVx in Div 2 and the rest will be in Div 3. The things will filter out within a few years (with pro.rel) to settle down into into where everyone belongs ability level. It gives the players something to play for.

 

[TigerCraig]

The team I play for only have 1 team. There's another semi local Club that has 3 teams, these 3 teams all play in different divisions. This means that there's always opponents. I get that Aus is much bigger but I'm guessing that there will be regional leagues. Why not just mix it up So lets say you have 12 Clubs, 6 have 4 teams (24), 2 have 3 teams (6), 2 have 2 teams (4) and the other 2 only have 1 team each. This gives 36 team if my maths is right.

This means that the Div 1 team will always be the 6 teams that have 4 XVs they might have absolute rubbish teams that get beat every week, a Div 1 to me should be the best teams, not the biggest clubs. You could have 3 divisions of 12 Div 1 can have the 1XVs from each team. Could have everyone's 1st XV in Div 1, all 2nd XVs + 2 - 3rd XVx in Div 2 and the rest will be in Div 3. The things will filter out within a few years (with pro.rel) to settle down into into where everyone belongs ability level. It gives the players something to play for.

I get what you are saying, its just not how we do things. We join clubs not teams. The guys in the 4ths want to stick around and sit on the bench for 3rds then have a few beers and watch the 2nds and 1sts. They dont want to be 3 hours away on the other side of Sydney.

Also we dont have the luxury of being able to leave fields sitting vacant all day waiting for 3pm games. For one thing if soccer see a vacant field it will be theirs next season.

Also under the system you propose after a couple of years one club could potentially end up with all 4 of its teams in the same division playing against each other

 

[OB..]

Also under the system you propose after a couple of years one club could potentially end up with all 4 of its teams in the same division playing against each other

RFU Regulations do not allow that.

Some counties allow 2nd and lower teams to enter the leagues so the problem does arise occasionally that a team cannot be promoted.

The constraints in Australia are totally different from those over here, so differences in organisation are essential.

 

[Arabcheif]

I don't have a problem with a 1st and 2nd XV playing in the same league, providing the 2 teams play it as a normal game and the 2nds don't just say, "let the 1sts win." But yeah it could happen but I'd expect the league administrator to deal with that as the situation arises. Maybe points deduction in the 1st instance and relegation and poss expulsion for repeat offences. At the level I play in there's a gulf of difference between the 1st, 2nd and 3rd XVs of the Dundee Club. The 1sts play in the nation league 1, their 2nds play in the national reserve league 2 and the 3rds played in the regional div 3 last year. I think they'll be in regional Div 2 next year.

I do believe that there is a stipulation that that at least in the national leagues that 1st and 2nds can't play in the same league. I might be making that up, although I do seem to remember reading something like that.