Premiership final

[Flish]

RFU Regulations do not allow that.

Some counties allow 2nd and lower teams to enter the leagues so the problem does arise occasionally that a team cannot be promoted.

Yup, hence why we end up with two clubs being technically formed so that 1's and 2's can both play in the league structure, something we're exploring at my home club am told, all a bit of a ball ache, just want the best level of rugby for all teams

 

[crossref]

Our Merit Table organisers are very pragmatic and we have some examples of two teams from the same club in the same division

OB I think RFU leagues are 1st team only aren't they ?

 

[Rich_NL]

Like I said my club plays in 6th Division, and although some 6th Division clubs would beat those in 4th or even 3rd Division they will never be promoted, because 6th Div is for clubs with only 1 senior team. To get to 3rd Division or higher would require fielding 3 or 4 senior teams plus Colts as well as ground improvements

How do you avoid a whole season of 80-0 meaningless victories/senseless drubbings at each end of the division?

edit: sorry, didn't see all the posts after this. So your divisions are more based on club size than competitive level?

 

[Arabcheif]

How do you avoid a whole season of 80-0 meaningless victories/senseless drubbings at each end of the division?

I'm guessing they don't and that it seems like it potentially could be a regular occurrence. It happens in my league too though, I think my team one 86 - 5 one game in the season before last. But we split that Div for last season and I don't think it happened (to us anyway).

 

[Flish]

Our Merit Table organisers are very pragmatic and we have some examples of two teams from the same club in the same division

OB I think RFU leagues are 1st team only aren't they ?

Sorry, yes, I was referring to RFU leagues, Merit leagues far more flexible. We have a national 1 first team and (did) have a very high standard 2nd and 3rd team as you might expect, however as the 1st team becomes more pro gaps have widened, to the effect that our 2s are in the majority our 3rds social players of old, and all the players in the middle have moved on to other local clubs as they want to play league rugby and move up the ranks. So we're investigating entering our 2s as a new club at the bottom of the structure which will hopefully be more attractive to the players. Basically we would have 6 levels of league rugby between the 2 teams, so never likely to meet.

A complicated solution to the problem, but exists because we can't play in a league structure for ours 2s and 3s (that was) appropriate to the standard :-(

 

[TigerCraig]

How do you avoid a whole season of 80-0 meaningless victories/senseless drubbings at each end of the division?

edit: sorry, didn't see all the posts after this. So your divisions are more based on club size than competitive level?

It doesnt happen often. Players that are top quality are encouraged to go up to a Shute Shield club rather than mess about in lower division suburban. One of our club juniors is crrently playing for Warringah first grade and his brother is in their third grade. We encouraged them to go up there. Meanwhile their less talented/dedicated brother and their dad still play for us.

Other clubs are similar. Rather than teams/clubs getting promoted, players do. They then come back. We have an ex Australian Sevens rep and an ex Waratah at our club now. Both in their 40's now and giving back to the game

 

[TigerCraig]

I don't have a problem with a 1st and 2nd XV playing in the same league, providing the 2 teams play it as a normal game and the 2nds don't just say, "let the 1sts win." But yeah it could happen but I'd expect the league administrator to deal with that as the situation arises. .

As I said before it wouldnt work here as 2nds players provide the bench for 1sts, and players move fluidly between the teams based on form/injury/availability. They arent seperate entities, they are all one squad.

In cricket the season before last I played games in 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th grades. Similar happens in rugby in big clubs

 

[Camquin]

You do get the odd upset e.g. from 2017/18 Zoo Shield
Richmond Vikings (2nd XV) 19 - 25 Richmond Saxons (3rd XV)

Cambridge 3rdXV play in Eastern Counties 1 - a level Cambridge 1st XV were at 20 or so years ago - but cannot be promoted to the Divisional league.

 

[Rich_NL]

It doesnt happen often. Players that are top quality are encouraged to go up to a Shute Shield club rather than mess about in lower division suburban. One of our club juniors is crrently playing for Warringah first grade and his brother is in their third grade. We encouraged them to go up there. Meanwhile their less talented/dedicated brother and their dad still play for us.

Other clubs are similar. Rather than teams/clubs getting promoted, players do. They then come back. We have an ex Australian Sevens rep and an ex Waratah at our club now. Both in their 40's now and giving back to the game

Ah right, how interesting. Here I think club loyalty is more of the culture - although if you have a standout player two divisions above the rest of the team they will often move to a club that can offer a challenge. But not often without remarks from the club they left.

 

[didds]

Ah right, how interesting. Here I think club loyalty is more of the culture - although if you have a standout player two divisions above the rest of the team they will often move to a club that can offer a challenge. But not often without remarks from the club they left.

Blimey. How parochial!

didds

 

[thepercy]

I get what you are saying, its just not how we do things. We join clubs not teams. The guys in the 4ths want to stick around and sit on the bench for 3rds then have a few beers and watch the 2nds and 1sts. They dont want to be 3 hours away on the other side of Sydney.

Also we dont have the luxury of being able to leave fields sitting vacant all day waiting for 3pm games. For one thing if soccer see a vacant field it will be theirs next season.

Also under the system you propose after a couple of years one club could potentially end up with all 4 of its teams in the same division playing against each other

I think in the Aussie system the players do have something to play for, knock out cups for their clubs, and the favor of the selectors to move up to the next level within the club, and ultimately to their provincial franchises, and then to the Wallabies.

 

[crossref]

For me, entrenched in the English system , I find the Australian system endlessly intriguing . It is so different.

It actually helps to think of it as being somewhat like the English school system , where 1st 2nd and 3rd go everywhere together and , similarly, player can be fluid between the teams. The main difference being that the games are concurrent not consecutive

You are quite correct that in many grass roots clubs players feel they belong to a team more than to a club. This is a good thing for team spirit but can be the bane of a club if taken to extremes (last season the 3rd xv of one local club up sticked and went somewhere else , largely because the 2nd xv were short of numbers and the 3rds didn't want to be split up from eachother to make up 2nd xv numbers . This sort of thing is not uncommon

 

[OB..]

OB I think RFU leagues are 1st team only aren't they ?

No.

Somerset allow lower XVs and so do Dorset & Wilts (see RFU Fixtures & Results). Berks, Bucks, & Oxon tried it for a couple of years and then changed to running separate RFU leagues for lower XVs. Other Constituency Bodies have similar arrangements.

Some years ago the RFU Handbook index listed all teams in their leagues so I was able to compare the playing levels of 1st and 2nd XVs.

2nd XV levels 2013-14

Level	+1	+2	+3	+4
6	0	3	12	2
7	8	9	10	4
8	6	12	7	1
9	1	7	4	0
Totals	15	31	33	7

There does not seem to be a serious problem with strong 2nd XVs.

A couple of years ago Gloucestershire asked its clubs if they would like their lower teams to be allowed into the RFU leagues, but the clubs declined.

 

[Flish]

No.

There does not seem to be a serious problem with strong 2nd XVs.

A couple of years ago Gloucestershire asked its clubs if they would like their lower teams to be allowed into the RFU leagues, but the clubs declined.

Sadly Durham don’t seem to be as forward thinking, don’t think our neighbours in Yorkshire and Northumberland allow it either, as to Cumbria, well their struggling to keep 1st XV’s !

To be fair, I don’t think there are many strong 2nd XV teams up here, so not a huge demand

 

[crossref]

In London a year ago London Scottish split into two clubs, professional and amateur

This was so that the top amateur side becomes a 1st XV (Of the new club) and can enter the RFU league system. Previously they played in the Zoo league, a merit table for strong 2nd XV

They entered the RFU leagues at the lowest level in London (L10) and have to work their way up. Needless to say they won every game last season. But with some tension .. they had some 80 or 90 point games and many teams forfeited the away leg, not wanting to travel to take a beating.

I reffed them for one of their games, they were phlegmatic about the situation..

 

[TigerCraig]

I think in the Aussie system the players do have something to play for, knock out cups for their clubs, and the favor of the selectors to move up to the next level within the club, and ultimately to their provincial franchises, and then to the Wallabies.

We don't have knock out cups, but otherwise that's pretty right

 

[TigerCraig]

For me, entrenched in the English system , I find the Australian system endlessly intriguing . It is so different.

It actually helps to think of it as being somewhat like the English school system , where 1st 2nd and 3rd go everywhere together and , similarly, player can be fluid between the teams. The main difference being that the games are concurrent not consecutive

You are quite correct that in many grass roots clubs players feel they belong to a team more than to a club. This is a good thing for team spirit but can be the bane of a club if taken to extremes (last season the 3rd xv of one local club up sticked and went somewhere else , largely because the 2nd xv were short of numbers and the 3rds didn't want to be split up from eachother to make up 2nd xv numbers . This sort of thing is not uncommon

That's a pretty good analogy.

Its quite common here for say the first grade coach to come to the second grade coach and say "I'm taking Jones this week" or "I want you to start playing Smith at fly-half, and give him the kicking duties too", or send a message at half time "take Brown off, I need him as my reserve hooker this afternoon". Like a national coach giving instructions to clubs.

Not all players want to be part of a large club structure, hence why clubs like mine exist. My son played his Under 18's at another, large, club but didn't want to go up through their Colts and 4 grade structure, so he came back to play at my club where he had played his younger age rugby

 

[TigerCraig]

Ah right, how interesting. Here I think club loyalty is more of the culture - although if you have a standout player two divisions above the rest of the team they will often move to a club that can offer a challenge. But not often without remarks from the club they left.

The other thing is that as juniors the strong players are used to playing representative football for their Shute Shield club, so when it comes to seniors its a natural progression for players of that ability. The sub-district clubs are feeders and supposed to support that pyramid.

So, for example, in my part of Northern Sydney you have the Wakehurst, Newport, Dee Why, Narrabeen and Collaroy clubs feeding to Warringah; while Manly Roos, Seaforth, Harbord, Forest and Allambie feed to Manly

So a kid playing under 15's for Newport would be picked to play representative football for Warringah, while a kid playing for Forest would be picked to represent Manly

 

[OB..]

In London a year ago London Scottish split into two clubs, professional and amateur

This was so that the top amateur side becomes a 1st XV (Of the new club) and can enter the RFU league system. Previously they played in the Zoo league, a merit table for strong 2nd XV

They entered the RFU leagues at the lowest level in London (L10) and have to work their way up. Needless to say they won every game last season. But with some tension .. they had some 80 or 90 point games and many teams forfeited the away leg, not wanting to travel to take a beating.

I reffed them for one of their games, they were phlegmatic about the situation..

RFU Regulations state that any new team must enter the leagues at the bottom.

The stupidity of this was demonstrated when Hartpury (now in the Championship - level 2) decided to join the leagues and started in Gloucester 3 North (level 11). Curiously they lost their very first game to Smiths (because their real players were not yet back in college after the summer holidays) but didn't lose another game for the next seven years. I remember watching my club lose to them 96-0. I don't see that anybody benefitted from the farce.

Interestingly the Regulation has been circumvented to a small extent in Somerset: when they first allowed lower XVs into their leagues, several clubs put in their 3rd XV. Then the following year they entered their 2nd XV as well and the Regulations about not having two teams in the same league meant they had to put the 2nd XV in the next league up.

There is a better solution: Require a new team to play a season of friendlies at what they consider the appropriate level and let them start one level below the evidence. We used that in our Merit Tables and it worked well. If clubs complain about being denied promotion as a consequence, ask them if they prefer to be hammered twice a season by 100 or so points.

 

[didds]

There is a better solution: Require a new team to play a season of friendlies at what they consider the appropriate level and let them start one level below the evidence. We used that in our Merit Tables and it worked well.

Thats a sensible approach. The problem will be finding sufficient fixture for the season, as everybody else will have league fixtures three weeks out of four (or similar)