Pro 14 Ref chief speaks to Wales on line

beckett50


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I agree that the TMO explanation was rather 'wooly'. I was more concerned with his calls for impartial match officials at every game, which I think calls into question the integrity of the current panel of officials.

As for the one Law that he'd change? :mad:
 

L'irlandais

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I agree that the TMO explanation was rather 'wooly'. I was more concerned with his calls for impartial match officials at every game, which I think calls into question the integrity of the current panel of officials
Yeah, but it was a leading question from the Wales online blogger.

WoL said:
Englishman Greg Garner is the man in charge of the officials, in his role as the PRO14’s Elite Referee Manager.
Well Mr. Garner this is just shoddy journalism;

WoL said:
The TMO on that occasion was Irish. Would you accept if you were to have neutral referees and TMOs for every game, the narrative would be purely about competency when mistakes are made and not impartiality?
A: I totally agree with you.

.. before suggesting (making an accusation ?) that of course an Irishman couldn’t possibly remain impartial.
Try to understand the Munster philosophy «*Irish by birth, Munster by the grace of God.*» Ireland is provincial, so unlikely that a Munster-born, Leinster-branch ref would be biased in favour of a Connacht team.

[LAWS]Connacht v Cardiff Blues @ The Sportsground 10 of April 2009
Referee: Mike Adamson (Scotland) Assistant referees: George Clancy (Ireland), Fin Brown (Scotland) TMO: Ken Henley-Willis (Ireland)
[/LAWS]
When Connacht played away to Cardiff the TMO was Welsh, don’t remember Wales online complaining back in January about that.
So presumably impartiality in the eyes of Wales on line, is based on Nationality. Welsh officials being about reproach.
[LAWS]Referee: Mike Adamson
AR1: Adam Jones
AR2: Lloyd Linton
TMO: Ian Davies
Match appointment details[/LAWS]
Not sure what he things about straight put-ins, perhaps he thinks favouring the attacking side will make for better TV rugby.
As for the one Law that he'd change? :mad:
I would like to see a law that says at the scrum the defending No 9 has to go and stand behind his No 8’s feet.
Let’s top all the harassing of the attacking No 9, let him pass the ball and then we get the ball in play.
That would be my change.
I wonder if that really allows for a fairer competition for the ball?
 
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Marc Wakeham


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The issue was that the TMO call in the game referred to, was not just wrong (as admitted by Greg) but it was clearly wrong It was not even a close call. So that inevitable leads to people questioning the integrity of the sysyem of appointment. I am sure that there have been cases where Irish fans have not been happy with a home TMO's calls. The qestion was hardly leading. There were many answers ,apart from the correct one he could have given. I am sure Greg was exoecting it. I'm not sure why his answer was so porr considerign that.

Note there is also critisim for the call by a Welsh referee in the article.

Simon T is not making accusations but, correctly, stating that when glaring errors are made by an official and it is know that the official comes from the same country as the team benefiting from the error. It is only human nature for the question of bias to raise its head. Clearly if the officials are neutral then the question becomes one of competence rather than bias. Greg deals with the point well. THe point you omit from your "munster hates there rest" is thet the Irish officals and the provinces have, in effect, the same paymaster. So it is not quite as simple as you smokescreen it.
The "blogger" is actually a journalist of many years standing. He asked for fans to put questions forward for him to take to Greg.


Back to the article I think fair play to Greg for agreeing the the intervies and for having a desire to sort some of the leagues shortcommings out. His ideas about the law change belongs in the same place as, sadly much of his scrum understanding, the bin.
 

crossref


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I think everyone can see that having third - country officials would go optimal , if only to avoid having these tedious conversations. I think GG provided some good insight into why this is harder to achieve in practice, than we might think
 

L'irlandais

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The underlying problem is the Pro14 is strapped for cash and the home country officials is a financial necessity, rather than any kind of suitable arrangement. The Welsh regions being worse hit than the Irish provinces, in my opinion.
 

Shelflife


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I think everyone can see that having third - country officials would go optimal , if only to avoid having these tedious conversations. I think GG provided some good insight into why this is harder to achieve in practice, than we might think

If you can have impartial officials for every game it would be great ! but then you end up down the path of officials being promoted simply because of their nationality.

You could have 5 excellent refs from Wales but only need 3 so 2 refs are dropped, and then you promoted 2 substandard Irish refs in their place in order to have impartiality.

The 2 good Welsh refs then clear off to the Premiership or down under and the standard of the Pro 14 refs declines.

Personally I dont buy the biased ref argument, If anything Id say an official would sway against his countries team in order to avoid any semblance of bias which I suppose is a bias in itself ironically.

Its a tricky situation, does it arise in the Premiership with refs from certain regions having their integrity called into question ?
 

crossref


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If you can have impartial officials for every game it would be great ! but then you end up down the path of officials being promoted simply because of their nationality.

I think we DO have impartial officials.

but for the sake of appearance it would be good to have 3rd country officials
 

DocY


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To be honest I think overall standards are the problem and pointing to nationalities, and trying to get 'neutral' refs is a distraction that won't help the problem - and as Shelflife says, could even exacerbate it (mentioning no names, some referees aren't up to it and I've seen unforgivable errors in pro 14 games).

Raise the standards and the 'neutral' perception problem goes away. But that's much harder to do.

But I would have liked to have heard him say something like "Well all our referees are neutral" and to tell the complainers where to go.
 

Marc Wakeham


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Personally I dont buy the biased ref argument, If anything Id say an official would sway against his countries team in order to avoid any semblance of bias which I suppose is a bias in itself ironically.

Its a tricky situation, does it arise in the Premiership with refs from certain regions having their integrity called into question ?

It's a question of perception not facts.

Taking your regeions of England point, the EPL disbarrs refs from officiating teams within certaind distances from their homes. Why? Because they understand the question of perception.
 

Zebra1922


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It's a question of perception not facts.

Taking your regeions of England point, the EPL disbarrs refs from officiating teams within certaind distances from their homes. Why? Because they understand the question of perception.

Yes I regularly referee my local club who are less than 1 mile away from my house with no perceptions of bias. Over time you get to know some of the coaches (and even get on with some!) yet I've never had anyone challenge my impartiality over this.
 

Shelflife


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It's a question of perception not facts.

Taking your regeions of England point, the EPL disbarrs refs from officiating teams within certain distances from their homes. Why? Because they understand the question of perception.

But hasnt Wayne Barnes reffed Gloucester Bristol andBath in the past ? Why is there never an outcry over that yet some get their knickers in a twist in the Pro14 ?

Personally its the last thing that id think of that a Ref might be biased towards his local team
 

L'irlandais

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The problem with supporters’ perception is that it can be wide of the mark. Greg Garner has come in for flak when he was behind the whistle. The French logic being that an anglosaxon was obviously the wrong choice to ref the Munster game, as he clearly was going to be biased.
Yes it’s true in Munster we do speak English, (but not only) however the common points with somebody from Coventry end there. Except somebody from the South of France may well not get that. The idea of being seen to be impartial is understandable, but where do you draw the line? There simply aren’t enough qualified referees in Italy to ensure no English speaking referees ref. Matches with teams from foreign fields.
 
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Marc Wakeham


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But hasnt Wayne Barnes reffed Gloucester Bristol andBath in the past ? Why is there never an outcry over that yet some get their knickers in a twist in the Pro14 ?

Personally its the last thing that id think of that a Ref might be biased towards his local team

I would imagine there is a question or two raised but I don't follow the English pro game so cannot support with proof. It would be a great surprise if there was not a reactions given there is one in other sports and areas.
 

Marc Wakeham


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The problem with supporters’ perception is that it can be wide of the mark. Greg Garner has come in for flak when he was behind the whistle. The French logic being that an anglosaxon was obviously the wrong choice to ref the Munster game, as he clearly was going to be biased.
Yes it’s true in Munster we do speak English, (but not only) however the common points with somebody from Coventry end there. Except somebody from the South of France may well not get that. The idea of being seen to be impartial is understandable, but where do you draw the line? There simply aren’t enough qualified referees in Italy to ensure no English speaking referees ref. Matches with teams from foreign fields.

It is wonderful you see the best in them. funny that your posts after certain losses seem full of accusations of referee errors going against"your" sides.
 
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