Punching fighting. If punches miss, is that not a red then ?

CrouchTPEngage


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Just a question about an U19's game recently.
Mass brawl broke out. I saw 2 players in the middle of it all trading punches at each other.
If the punches were just swung and not landed, would you tend to give them a yellow instead of red ? I took the view that aiming ans swinging a fist at an opponents head was sufficiently dangerous to warrant a red. But other refs have mentioned that they have yellowed swinging punches if they miss their target.
Advice please ?
 

Daftmedic


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The intent is shown to cause damage. Just because they have the skills of asthmatic kittens with one eye shouldn't detract from the sanction.
 

The Fat


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If you RC them, what Law/offence are you going to cite on your report for the judiciary hearing if they were swinging but not connecting?

From your description of the events, surely they made some contact otherwise I'm picturing two players with arms rotating like windmills but not close enogh to hit each other.
 

OB..


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Since punching is an offence, then attempting to punch must be misconduct under 10.4 (m).
 

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Throwing a punch is punching whether or not they land. If you would have YC a punch that lands, you should YC on one that does not. If a punch is sufficiently serious to warrant a RC it is a RC whether or not it lands.

Judge on the number thrown, circumstances etc.
 

didds

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IMO not to RC a missed swing is basically syaing the perp got away with it because the potential target had better eveasion skills than somebody esle.

ie the same swing connects with somebody slow in evasion = RC, but if the recipient is quick enough to evade then = YC. Such an approach is nonsensical becasue the ultuimate card actually relies on the recipient;s actions not the perp.

RC for me everytime but having had this discussion here before it appears I am wrong and that it is all about contact.

didds
 

CrouchTPEngage


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didds,
Thanks. Yes that is where I am starting to wonder if I am a bit red-card trigger happy. Players get emotional and ( at certain age-groups ) react first and think later. Having read about cases of head punches causing trauma and even proving fatal in rare cases, I don't like taking chances and err on the side of safety. So if the intent was there to aim a punch to the head then its a straight red.

The next follow-on question is concerning retaliation. If someone gets punched , can you red-card the first puncher and yellow the second. Is retaliation seen as less of an offence than the initial foul-play ?
 

Daftmedic


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Nope. Not at all. Are there four corners with ropes going round and canvas floor?
do they wear boxing gloves?
is it rugby?

the intent to cause harm was there.
 
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Dixie


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didds,
Thanks. Yes that is where I am starting to wonder if I am a bit red-card trigger happy. Players get emotional and ( at certain age-groups ) react first and think later. Having read about cases of head punches causing trauma and even proving fatal in rare cases, I don't like taking chances and err on the side of safety. So if the intent was there to aim a punch to the head then its a straight red.

The next follow-on question is concerning retaliation. If someone gets punched , can you red-card the first puncher and yellow the second. Is retaliation seen as less of an offence than the initial foul-play ?
You are right that age groups can get emotional - but they need to learn to curb their agression - and quickly. If you wimp out of the RC sanction, you can end up in situations like this one http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...n-hospital-rugby-game-punch-state-school.html (local to me, with very severe impact on reputations and the threat of criminal action).

A retaliatory punch is no less a punch for the provocation. Punch A = card. Punch B = card. Generally speaking, the cards will be the same colour (though there may be reasons why one is different from the other - e.g. Punch A = relatively gentle SH push at scrum time accidentally high becoming a strike to the arm; Punch B = closed fist haymaker to the side of the face).
 

didds

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The next follow-on question is concerning retaliation. If someone gets punched , can you red-card the first puncher and yellow the second.


Yes. But why not RC the retaliation?

Its the thin end of the wedge - if you are seen to be softy on retaliation could it not open the flood gates after any "1st punch" ?

I am quite happy to be better educated, but i can't see that you can RC one punch (connected or not) and not another. The tribunal can sort out the retaliation aspects and level of punishments.


didds
 

CrouchTPEngage


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Thanks for the advice, people ! I think that ,after control has broken-down like that , both sides must have expected (and their coaches didn't complain later ) about the reds. I felt that it sent a message to both sides to stop retaliation. There had been no foul-play or allegations of such until that point.

Just another thoughts, in the last 10 minutes of the match, would you tend to yellow more than red-card offences becasue (a) It achieves the goal of getting those players off the pitch and (b) means less paper-work for the reports afterwards ?
I'd love to see the stats on what minute of the match a red is issued versus a yellow. That would be interesting !
 

didds

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You RC a player for a punch in the first 10 minutes.

Oppo player punches with 7 minutes to go and gets a YC.

Now explain to the first player why.

Could be an "invitation" to wait for your retaliation until 9 minutes to go...


didds
 

OB..


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Just another thoughts, in the last 10 minutes of the match, would you tend to yellow more than red-card offences becasue (a) It achieves the goal of getting those players off the pitch and (b) means less paper-work for the reports afterwards ?
Emphatically not.
 

dave_clark


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Just another thoughts, in the last 10 minutes of the match, would you tend to yellow more than red-card offences becasue (a) It achieves the goal of getting those players off the pitch and (b) means less paper-work for the reports afterwards ?

a lot of people (openly) do this. i would be surprised if anyone who took it seriously (i.e. society referees) fell into this category, but i know which of my club refs do.
 

Phil E


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Had one of these.
Kick to the head,player on the floor moved out of the way.
I red carded the would be kicker.
That got him off the pitch.
At the hearing they said the offence was kicking another player, but as no kick had taken place (because there was no contact), he got off.
 

Browner

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I'm slightly dismayed that most posters seem to think that RC x1 x2 x3 is the automatic result of all affray's ....... whatever happened to cautioning, calming down & diffusing as tools ? sometimes 10 minutes to calm down with a "next foul play for you=RC" warning, works a treat. In most cases the 'catalyst' for the 'handbags' isn't actually seen by the referee, so he's usually dealing with the secondary action...... Or am I alone in this approach?
 

Browner

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Had one of these.
Kick to the head,player on the floor moved out of the way.
I red carded the would be kicker.
That got him off the pitch.
At the hearing they said the offence was kicking another player, but as no kick had taken place (because there was no contact), he got off.

Had they said the offence was 10.4[m] "sportsmanship" ..... as suggested by OB, then what would the hearing have likely concluded as a punishment ? 100 lines " I must improve my foul play execution, or desist from attempting it" :confused:
 

OB..


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I'm slightly dismayed that most posters seem to think that RC x1 x2 x3 is the automatic result of all affray's ....... whatever happened to cautioning, calming down & diffusing as tools ? sometimes 10 minutes to calm down with a "next foul play for you=RC" warning, works a treat. In most cases the 'catalyst' for the 'handbags' isn't actually seen by the referee, so he's usually dealing with the secondary action...... Or am I alone in this approach?
It depends entirely on the actual details.
 

Stuartg


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And the eample of televised games adds further confusion. Punches thrown and missed but no card of any colour.

Open hand or closed hand? Over the weekend in one televised Welsh(?) game one player threw a ball at another's head, the other responded with open hand to face (contact made) - outcome was 2 YCs.
 

didds

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I'm slightly dismayed that most posters seem to think that RC x1 x2 x3 is the automatic result of all affray's ....... whatever happened to cautioning, calming down & diffusing as tools ? sometimes 10 minutes to calm down with a "next foul play for you=RC" warning, works a treat.


counsel for the ambulance chaser: So - you saw Mr X punch a player on Mr A's team, but you did not send him off warning that if he did it again he'd would be dismissed on that occassion. My client's jaw was broken in 4 places 2 minutes later when Mr. X punched him. Can you explain to the court how your actions at the first punch did not contribute to my clients injuries and subsequent loss of income.

Browner: errrrrrr

Counsel~:Because it seems to me that had you had dismissed such a violent individual the fist time, the second punch could not have occurred.

Browner: errrr

etc.

Why should a player that has already displayed direct violence towards another be given a chance? this isn't the same as a crooked feed!

didds
 
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