Push in the back of the ball carrier

[Blackberry]

As I'm seeing it, there is no law against pushing, but it could be penalised if the push is dangerous. Is that about right?

 

[crossref]

As I'm seeing it, there is no law against pushing, but it could be penalised if the push is dangerous. Is that about right?

I reckon - -and to be considered dangerous, it would have to be more dangerous than a perfectly legal tackle.
A ball carrier can be tackled from behind (which is not pleasant when it happens to you - but perfectly legal) so no reason why he can't be pushed from behind .

 

[Pegleg]

An opponent is allowed to push a player holding the ball, but the only doubt I have in mind is whether a hard push in the back could be considered "dangerous". I'm thinking there's a good chance of whiplash.

I appreciate it will happen quick (possibly too quick to do anything about it) but if there was a stationary BC and an opponent approaching fast from behind, personally I reckon I would blow up on safety grounds, and restart with a scrum to the BCs side.

Taff, if he had tackled him from behind with a shoulder in the small of the back and arms wrapping the thighs would you have blown that up?

Honestly? Probably yes, but on safety grounds not of an offence. Ie it would be a scrum restart not a PK restart.

I'd like to think I would have prevented it happening, but until it actually happens in a real game, I won't know if my reactions would be fast enough, but when you think someone is seriously hurt, it's bloody surprising how quick you can move.

I have blown up for legal tackles where the BC was tackled and landed awkwardly and surprisingly I don't remember anyone complaining; in fact far from it, both sides usually appreciate it - as long as you explain why you've done it.

Sorry but you would be for ever with the whistle in your mouth. You can't blow for perfectly legal tackles. Tackles from behind have been make for over 100 years. If a player is injured and you need toblow fair enough but not just because the player's not expecting it.

A tackle and a push are legal. True both can be done dangerously and therfore illegally but I see not justification for your stance here. Maybe I'm reading you wrong.

 

[Browner]

[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]g)
[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]Dangerous charging. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]A player must not charge or knock down an [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]opponent carrying the ball[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] without trying to grasp that player.[/FONT][/LAWS]

But surely Crossref, until this Law is removed, 'without trying to grasp & ball carrier' are the key elements ????

Its fairly clear that a two handed forceful shove isn't a bonafide "trying to grasp"

 

[Pegleg]

[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]g)
[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]Dangerous charging. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]A player must not charge or knock down an [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]opponent carrying the ball[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] without trying to grasp that player.[/FONT][/LAWS]

But surely Crossref, until this Law is removed, 'without trying to grasp & ball carrier' are the key elements ????

Its fairly clear that a two handed forceful shove isn't a bonafide "trying to grasp"

A push is specifically allowed. A push does not require "trying to grasp".

 

[crossref]

[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]g)
[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]Dangerous charging. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]A player must not charge or knock down an [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]opponent carrying the ball[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] without trying to grasp that player.[/FONT][/LAWS]

But surely Crossref, until this Law is removed, 'without trying to grasp & ball carrier' are the key elements ????

Its fairly clear that a two handed forceful shove isn't a bonafide "trying to grasp"

I think you are trying to create a controversy that doesn't exist.

- the Laws specifically allow a player to push the ball carrier
- the Laws specifically prohibit charging or knocking down the ball carrier

We all know the difference.

 

[Blackberry]

I interpret a push as with the hands only, otherwise its a charge.

 

[Taff]

Sorry but you would be for ever with the whistle in your mouth. You can't blow for perfectly legal tackles. Tackles from behind have been make for over 100 years. If a player is injured and you need toblow fair enough but not just because the player's not expecting it.

Not quite true Pegleg. Far from "for ever with the whistle in your mouth" I don't remember blowing for it once in the last 3 years.

Head on tackles or tackles from the side are no problem. The problem (as I see it anyway) only comes when there is a big difference in speed between the BC or ball catcher and the tackler. Eg where the BC (or catcher) is stationary and targeted by a fast tackler from behind - ie there could be a massive difference in speed. Where the 2 are running in the same direction (ie the speed difference is negligible) I can't see a problem.

I interpret a push as with the hands only, otherwise its a charge.

Same here.

 

[didds]

I am struggling to understand how the BC and tackler are not running in the same direction for a tackle from behind?

didds

 

[crossref]

I am struggling to understand how the BC and tackler are not running in the same direction for a tackle from behind?

didds

the scenario I am thinking of is : you could have a situation after a tackle, where it is a 'tackle only' - ie no ruck or maul formed, and no offside lines.

At the tackle a team mate of the ball carrier in the scrum-half position picks up the ball and, mistakenly believing a ruck had formed, pauses with the ball in his hands .. and is unexpectedly tackled from behind by a retiring opponent (who is not offside because no ruck had formed).

that's a hard tackle to receive, from behind, unexpected.

It's partly to prevent this that a referee calls 'tackle-only' making sure everyone is aware.

 

[Browner]

- the Laws specifically allow a player to push the ball carrier
- the Laws specifically prohibit charging or knocking down the ball carrier

But reading this thread its not appearing clear Crossref, so .... a forceful two handed push in the back that knocks the ball carrier off his feet/down to the ground ( and is devoid of any grasp attempt ) is what ...
a) lawful push ..or
b) an offence

??

Coz IIUC that is the OP query.

from behind and pushed him in the back, so that the b/c went to ground. It was a solid push

 

[crossref]

obviosuly we didn't see the particular incident, so can't give a judgement.
but i would say if he pushed the ball carrier it was legal, if he charged/knocked him down it was illegal.

 

[Pegleg]

As I'm seeing it, there is no law against pushing, but it could be penalised if the push is dangerous. Is that about right?

Spot on. Just like (almost) any other legal act on the field. Judge on it own merit don't prejudge.

 

[Pegleg]

Not quite true Pegleg. Far from "for ever with the whistle in your mouth" I don't remember blowing for it once in the last 3 years.

Head on tackles or tackles from the side are no problem. The problem (as I see it anyway) only comes when there is a big difference in speed between the BC or ball catcher and the tackler. Eg where the BC (or catcher) is stationary and targeted by a fast tackler from behind - ie there could be a massive difference in speed. Where the 2 are running in the same direction (ie the speed difference is negligible) I can't see a problem.


Same here.

But your opening comments do not refer to a dangerous push does it. Nor does your reference to a tackle from behind.

If it is dangerous it deserves a whistle.

If a player is injured such that play needs to stop then again you whistle.

otherwise leave well alone. You talked about prevention. Well you can't blow your whistle in case some one might do sometihng dangerous in such a situation.

As I say I may not have read your post clearly or it may not have been a clearly made point.

 

[didds]

Got the thing about the scrumhalf etc . It doesn;t seem to have been a problem up till now though?

WADR to a bunch to top blokes and blokesses here, i do sometimes wonder if some people just go looking for reasons to blow the whistle.

I'll get me coat.

didds

 

[Dixie]

This thread is in danger of taking a perfectly normal situation and making it utterly confusing to the OP. The fact is that it is legal in rugby to push a player - and even to push him so that he falls over (why else would you do it?). In both law and common sense, the specific trumps the general. So I suspect RobLev knew that he was just stirring the pot with his rather cheeky suggestion that knocking down with a failure to grasp might trump 7.1.

[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]g)
[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]Dangerous charging. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]A player must not charge or knock down an [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]opponent carrying the ball[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] without trying to grasp that player.[/FONT][/LAWS]

But surely Crossref, until this Law is removed, 'without trying to grasp & ball carrier' are the key elements ????

Its fairly clear that a two handed forceful shove isn't a bonafide "trying to grasp"

See above. This is the general provision that is trumped by the specific one allowing pushing.

But your opening comments do not refer to a dangerous push does it. Nor does your reference to a tackle from behind.

If it is dangerous it deserves a whistle.

I don't believe that a push can ever be dangerous, unless directed above the shoulders.

 

[Phil E]

I don't believe that a push can ever be dangerous, unless directed above the shoulders.

Deliberately pushing someone into a pitchside object would be dangerous.

 

[Rich_NL]

I think it depends on the push. If you see someone tearing down the wing and the defence's last gasp is a shove in the back at top speed, that's dangerous - you are forcing someone to go faster than their legs will carry them, and you'll get shoulder and collarbone injuries. Responsibility for a safe tackle is the tackler's, and if you're shoving someone at full pelt, that's often dangerous. Especially at junior level.

I have seen more dangerous pushes than safe ones in this sort of situation. Also, an aggressive push can blur the line between shove and strike, and this can certainly be dangerous below the shoulders. But I think it's an area that referee judgement is everything; there are safe pushes and dangerous ones.

 

[Dixie]

Deliberately pushing someone into a pitchside object would be dangerous.

Which is why Law 1.6b requires the referee not to start the game if such an object exists.

 

[Dixie]

If you see someone tearing down the wing and the defence's last gasp is a shove in the back at top speed, that's dangerous - you are forcing someone to go faster than their legs will carry them, and you'll get shoulder and collarbone injuries.

Presumably these shoulder and collarbone injuries are incurred when the ball carrier falls over? If so, what makes you feel that these same injuries might not occur if the defender takes a different approach and grabs the ball carrier's ankles - again causing him to fall over? It seems to me that your argument is that it is dangerous to cause a ball carrier to fall over by executing a textbook tackle, because the ball carrier might get hurt. Rugby must a be a challenge for you - have you considered umpiring tennis or chess instead?

[EDIT] Sorry Rich NL - I had not checked your status as a newbie before swinging in with the sarcastic comment! My bad. But I retain the view that causing someone to fall over is one of the principle aims of rugby. The falling over is not, of itself, considered dangerous. It is only dangerous when the act of causing someone to fall over could itself cause injury before they fell - so a swinging arm to the head, a punch to the face or head, etc. [/EDIT]