[Scrum] Put In To The Scrum

Willehj

New member
Joined
May 15, 2017
Messages
14
Post Likes
0
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
Hi

Whilst the scrum half's alignment tot he scrum has changed can someone please confirm the Law 20.6 (d) not changed and the SH must throw the ball into the scrum.

Thanks
 

Marc Wakeham


Referees in Wales
Joined
Jan 5, 2018
Messages
2,778
Post Likes
842
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
No it has not changed. Here's the wording in the Simplified 2018 Book:

THROW
13. The scrum-half chooses which side of the scrum to throw in the ball.
14. The scrum-half holds the ball as shown in the diagram.
15. When both sides are square, stable and stationary, the referee signals to the scrum-half
to throw in the ball.
16. The scrum-half throws in the ball:
a. From the chosen side.
b. From outside the tunnel.
c. Without delay.
d. With a single forward movement.
e. At a quick speed.
f. Straight along the middle line.
g. So that it first touches the ground inside the tunnel.
Sanction: Free-kick.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,805
Post Likes
3,145
Actually that's the old version of the 2018 book

Last month the global law trials were adopted into law and the law now says
[LAWS]
When both sides are square, stable and stationary, the scrum-half throws in the ball:
From the chosen side.
From outside the tunnel.
Without delay.
With a single forward movement.
At a quick speed.
Straight. The scrum-half may align their shoulder on the middle line of the scrum, thereby standing a shoulder-width closer to their side of the scrum.
So that it first touches the ground inside the tunnel[/LAWS].

So it still must be straight , but no longer on the mid line
 
Last edited:

Rich_NL

Rugby Expert
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
1,621
Post Likes
499
The law trials have been accepted -

[LAWS]15. When both sides are square, stable and stationary, the scrum-half throws in the ball:
a. From the chosen side.
b. From outside the tunnel.
c. Without delay.
d. With a single forward movement.
e. At a quick speed.
f. Straight. The scrum-half may align their shoulder on the middle line of the scrum, thereby standing a shoulder-width closer to their side of the scrum
g. So that it first touches the ground inside the tunnel.[/LAWS]

So the law has not changed, the scrum-half must throw the ball in, but the referee no longer signals it, it's the SH's responsibility.

Is OP's question whether it has to be the player playing at number 9 who does that? Can a winger step up and offer to feed the ball?

The law book doesn't specify, as far as I see - laws are described by positions, so the hooker refers to the player in between the props, even if the #2 has swapped with another (front-row-qualified) player for the scrum. You sometimes see flankers and locks changing positions at scrum time, but the player in the lock position is the one bound on to, not the one under number 4 or 5 on the team sheet.

So it's not that the scrum-half has to feed the ball into the scrum, it's that the person feeding the ball into the scrum is the scrum-half. That's how I read it.
 

Marc Wakeham


Referees in Wales
Joined
Jan 5, 2018
Messages
2,778
Post Likes
842
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
The scrum half for the purpose beign the person throwing in. I took the question to be can the scrum half "place" the ball into as opposed to "throw" it into the scrum. The former is what you increasingly are seeing at the top.
 

Ciaran Trainor


Referees in England
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
2,844
Post Likes
361
Location
Walney Island
Current Referee grade:
Level 7
It must be straight at my level but obviously at the top level refs are told to completely ignore this law. I wonder how the after match brief works?
 

ChrisR

Player or Coach
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
3,231
Post Likes
356
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
No longer does the ball have to travel beyond the prop's inside shoulder before it strikes the ground. Again, the law catches up with reality as I have never heard of that being enforced.
 

Marc Wakeham


Referees in Wales
Joined
Jan 5, 2018
Messages
2,778
Post Likes
842
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Well it leaves that to opinion:

Law 15 g. So that it first touches the ground inside the tunnel.

Where is "inside" Befor or after the LHP? As you say the law has been simplified to allow for accepted practice.
 

Pinky


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
1,521
Post Likes
192
Well it leaves that to opinion:

Law 15 g. So that it first touches the ground inside the tunnel.

Where is "inside" Befor or after the LHP? As you say the law has been simplified to allow for accepted practice.

Not really any more opinion than before. Inside the tunnel would suggest at least under the LHP, perhaps in line with the THP shoulder, or maybe even not quite so far, but that clearly is less distance than previously as beyond the (presumably) LHP's inside shoulder.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,805
Post Likes
3,145
I am not sure what the OP question actually was !
I thought it was to do with straight put ins
 

Pinky


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
1,521
Post Likes
192
I am not sure what the OP question actually was !
I thought it was to do with straight put ins

They are supposed to, but on TV although for a brief time there were a few "gotchas" for not straight, they seem to allow them now. I am sure I have seen one put in so squint the 8 was able to pick it up from in front of the locks feet without anyone else touching it!
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,805
Post Likes
3,145
? As you say the law has been simplified to allow for accepted practice.


It's a pretty arcane Law, by any stretch of the imagination. I am not sure there was any accepted practice.

If someone had asked me exactly how far down the tunnel does the SH have to throw the ball, I cheerfully admit I would have had to look it up...

I know now :)
 

Jolly Roger


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
210
Post Likes
66
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
The law requiring the ball to first touch the ground inside the tunnel prevents the SH rolling the ball into the scrum.

Ensuring that the ball first touched the ground level with or beyond the LHP’s inside shoulder discouraged the hooker from dropping his position and twisting excessively in order to strike the ball as soon as it had entered the tunnel (very difficult to control the strike when the ball is in the air). As the game has evolved and competing for the strike has become less of a feature the new wording simplifies the laws but may enable agile hookers in youth or junior rugby to take the ball early. I don’t see this as a problem, as a hooker I would get my SH to place the ball so that it bounced centreline of my LHP so that I could get any quick strike. Positioning of the input also opened up options for which channel the ball was to be hooked down in order to enable back row options.
 

CrouchTPEngage


Referees in England
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
497
Post Likes
57
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
The "straight enough" put in. I was coached to think of the imaginary red-carpet , a ball's width wide running from between the scrum-half's legs and parallel with the front-rows shoulders.
the ball must be put in such that any part of the ball lands on any part of this imaginary red-carpet. If it lands to the right of it then not straight so free-kick.
anyone else use this approach ?
 

Zebra1922


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
716
Post Likes
233
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
The "straight enough" put in. I was coached to think of the imaginary red-carpet , a ball's width wide running from between the scrum-half's legs and parallel with the front-rows shoulders.
the ball must be put in such that any part of the ball lands on any part of this imaginary red-carpet. If it lands to the right of it then not straight so free-kick.
anyone else use this approach ?

Nope as you could land on that carpet but at a skew to your team giving them an unfair advantage. Straight is straight. I am happy for it to be off the midline (in line with the new laws) but I want it parallel to the lines and straight. You never see a SH putting the ball towards the opposition so any not straight feed is a deliberate act and will be penalised. I want an opportunity for the oppo to compete, I don't particularly like allowing a feed towards the pit in team, but that's what the law wants and hopefully moves us to the scrum as a restart rather than a penalty fest.

Similar in the lineout. Funny how all 'mistakes' by the hooker end up with the ball heading towards his team rather than the opposition. I don't allow that and I don't allow not straight at the scrum.

Interesting points from Jolly about why the ball should not be rolled into the scrum. I never considered this as a problem before, but then I've never played in the front row so this insight is really helpful, thanks.
 
Last edited:
Top