Quick Line out (not quick throw in)

crossref


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What if Black captain says to you at the coin toss, "Occasionally we like to go quickly on our throw into the lineout Sir".
What is your reply?

I would say "thanks for the heads up" and I would make sure I kept myself alert and on my toes ready

What if a captain said to you "when the QTI is on, we are going to delay taking it indefinitely until the moment comes when you announce no QTI . And then when you say that and the oppo are offguard we will immediately throw it in and take them by surprise. It won't be a QTI it will be a QTLO"
 
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Dickie E


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2 players along the line of touch. For a quick lineout if there isn't a player in the channel then just play a quick FK advantage, ball gets the to backs is advantage over, no need to stop a team wanted to expose the defence for relaxing.

so if lineout player knocks on or throw isn't straight, you're going to reward them with a FK?
 
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Not Kurt Weaver


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How many players from the non-throwing team do you require to be in position to allow the quick throw in?

I was hoping Simon would answer this, but I'll give my answer without his input.

None.

If the ball and thrower are at the line of touch, the ball may be thrown at anytime.
 

SimonSmith


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2 players along the line of touch. For a quick lineout if there isn't a player in the channel then just play a quick FK advantage, ball gets the to backs is advantage over, no need to stop a team wanted to expose the defence for relaxing.

This.
The law is specific that two players from each team is all that is required to form a lineout.

The requirement for the dummy hooker isn't a prerequisite for a lineout to form or start, it's something that can be penalized for non compliance
 

crossref


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[LAWS] Lineout: A lineout is a set piece consisting of a line of at least two players from each team waiting to receive a throw from touch. [/LAWS]

I think the definition rules out a surprise lineout as described in the OP
 

didds

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time for a rugbyrefs.com poll?
 

Ian_Cook


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This.
The law is specific that two players from each team is all that is required to form a lineout.

The requirement for the dummy hooker isn't a prerequisite for a lineout to form or start, it's something that can be penalized for non compliance

Yep. For me, this is the nub.

If the thrower wants to throw when his opposing hooker is not in position, thats to his own disadvantage. The point of having the opposing hooker stand where he does is to prevent the non-throwing team from having a numerical advantage elsewhere.

Its more or less the same line of reasoning that applies if you have a line-out of, say six players from each team formed, and one of the throwing team suddenly retires, and the thrower throws in, you don't FK the non-throwing team for a numbers violation.


Note: I voted yes to all four scenarios. All you need is two players from each team at the LoT. Then, any player from the throwing team can throw the ball in along the LoT at least 5m and its game on.
 
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crossref


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Well you could throw a ball into a general melee, catch it 5m out and score in the tramlines

The lack of an opponent in the tramlines would be very helpful to the throwing team in that plan
 

didds

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maybe the defenders should be a bit quicker at getting into place.

If the tramline player was there but the defending backline weren't covering the field width and the throwing team get their centre scoring under the posts through lack of a defender in a place to stop him, whose fault is that?

If a full oineout is sery up and lots of time given and oppo backline in place and both backlines back 10m and the tramline player isnt there (for whatever reason) do you stop the throw until the defnders have put somebody there after you've told them to?

Wales scored a try a couple of season or so ago in excetly this slow-setup-lineout-no-tramline-defender. I wrote an article on Dan's Rugby Coach Weekly at the time.

didds
 

Arabcheif

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Ok this has been interesting. In the World Rugby website, I can find no reference to a Quick Line Out, there is a QTI and a normal, bog standard, run of the mill lineout. So it would appear that the 2 players from each team may only prevent the QTI to be taken?? Then the throwing team would need to wait till the Lineout is properly formed.

There should be 2 options available the QTI, if that's not on then a properly formed lineout. Unless someone can show me the Law for the inbetween Quickly Taken Line Out.

I will add, I suppose it depends if a) The throwing team have declared their intent to have a lineout shortened to 2 participants and b) would you allow them to at the last second increase the number of participants if they've not declared.

Plus just reading the LO Law it does state that the non throwing team Must have a play in the 5m area. This suggests that if QTI is not available the the throwing team must wait till the lineout is actually set correctly.

[FONT=fs_blakeregular]The non-throwing team must have a player between the touchline and the five-metre line. The player stands two metres from the mark of touch on their team’s side of the lineout and two metres from the five-metre line. [/FONT][COLOR=#2C8626 !important][FONT=fs_blakeregular]Sanction: [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#2C8626 !important][FONT=fs_blakeregular]Free-kick.[/FONT][/COLOR]
 
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didds

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Ok this has been interesting. In the World Rugby website, I can find no reference to a Quick Line Out, there is a QTI and a normal, bog standard, run of the mill lineout. So it would appear that the 2 players from each team may only prevent the QTI to be taken?? Then the throwing team would need to wait till the Lineout is properly formed.

There should be 2 options available the QTI, if that's not on then a properly formed lineout. Unless someone can show me the Law for the inbetween Quickly Taken Line Out.

I will add, I suppose it depends if a) The throwing team have declared their intent to have a lineout shortened to 2 participants and b) would you allow them to at the last second increase the number of participants if they've not declared.

Plus just reading the LO Law it does state that the non throwing team Must have a play in the 5m area. This suggests that if QTI is not available the the throwing team must wait till the lineout is actually set correctly.

[FONT=fs_blakeregular]The non-throwing team must have a player between the touchline and the five-metre line. The player stands two metres from the mark of touch on their team’s side of the lineout and two metres from the five-metre line. [/FONT][COLOR=#2C8626 !important][FONT=fs_blakeregular]Sanction: [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#2C8626 !important][FONT=fs_blakeregular]Free-kick.[/FONT][/COLOR]

No. It just means that if the non throwing team does NOT have a player in the tramlines they are liable to sanction. It does not mean the lineout cannot happen until there is one.



didds
 

Arabcheif

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Yes, provided the line out is correctly formed. This to me isn't a correctly formed line out unless the throwing team has stated that they want to shorten the LO to 2 participants. As a player and a ref, I'd work with a full LO unless advised by the throwing team that there was a change. If they've siad the LO was to be shortened to 2 Players then I may allow the LO. But again, it doesn't sit well as one sides players will no doubt be in an offside position.

EG - Black have kicked the ball into touch, QUI not on. 2 players from each side arrive (+thrower). Red declare they want the shortened LO to specify that there is 2 participant. They then take the throw, most of their team and the Black's players will be on their way up to Mark, therefore they all may be offside, def the throwing teams players as they're in front of the player who is playing/has last played the ball. There probably also in the way of the defenders who will no doubt be trying to tackle.
 

crossref


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[LAWS]Lineout: A lineout is a set piece consisting of a line of at least two players from each team waiting to receive a throw from touch[/LAWS].

I don't think you can have a surprise lineout , any more than you can have a surprise scrum or a surprise restart kick

Even for those of you who think a surprise lineout is technically possible, I would suggest it's not good game management ... You won't he thanked for it
 
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beckett50


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The 'old' Law book - bearing in mind we are repeatedly told there are "No new Laws" - made reference to players approaching the line out. It stated that any player approaching the line out was deemed to be a participating player, and so this always threw the whole QTI argument into somewhat of a puritanical debate.

Plus ca change :)
 

thepercy


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[LAWS]Lineout: A lineout is a set piece consisting of a line of at least two players from each team waiting to receive a throw from touch[/LAWS].

I don't think you can have a surprise lineout , any more than you can have a surprise scrum or a surprise restart kick

Even for those of you who think a surprise lineout is technically possible, I would suggest it's not good game management ... You won't he thanked for it

Would you make the kicking team wait for the opposition to get ready at a restart after a score if they were all behind the 10-meter line? At a 22DO?
 
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thepercy


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[LAWS]Unless the throw is taken as soon as the lineout formed, the non-throwing team may not have more players (but may have fewer) in the lineout then the throwing team.[/LAWS]

This seems to imply that you CAN throw the ball into a lineout as soon as it is formed. No need to wait for the oppo to organize, you just lose out the "numbers" sanction if you do.
 

Dickie E


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No. It just means that if the non throwing team does NOT have a player in the tramlines they are liable to sanction. It does not mean the lineout cannot happen until there is one.



didds

Blue hooker sees 2 + 2 and no Red opponent. Throws ball straight to half back.

Peep. "Throw not straight. But first offence no Red player in tram lines. FK to Blue".

Is that how you're going to roll?
 

crossref


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Would you make the kicking team wait for the opposition to get ready at a restart after a score if they were all behind the 10-meter line? At a 22DO?

I would make the kicking team wait until the receiving team were all behind the 10m line . As per the Laws
 

didds

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Blue hooker sees 2 + 2 and no Red opponent. Throws ball straight to half back.

Peep. "Throw not straight. But first offence no Red player in tram lines. FK to Blue".

Is that how you're going to roll?

*shrug*.

Not straight, options clearly.

Fr4ankly the sanctionb for no tramlone player seems a bit strange TBH. Yes defenders may have an extra backline defender. But jnopw they've nopbody defensing the tramline corridor.

however I appreciate that is what the law says, whatever.

Its still options for not straight for me.

didds
 

Arabcheif

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But the throwing team haven't declared they're having a shortened LO. Would you ping the non-throwing team for having too many players if they had 3 players and the throwing team only had 2? Unless they state otherwise, I'll make them wait every time for the LO to be properly formed. Unless they take a QTI, but this isn't permissible under these circumstances.
 
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