[Law] Quiz #4 .. quick tapping

[crossref]

As before .. give yourself as much time as you would on field to make the decision and answer just A B C D E

No Law Spoilers .

I will give the answer tomorrow and then we can have a Law discussion if we need it

Blue are awarded a PK
Blue #9 takes a quick tap, and several Blue players are in front of him when the PK is taken

A Scrum to Red
B Play on (but offside in general play applies)
C Play on, but blue players must retire until put onside
D Play on, but blue players must stand still until put on side
E Take the PK again

 

[Flish]

Don't recall a specific law reference so I'll go with B, you're offside but keep out of the way.

 

[Pablo]

I would go with B as well, providing that Blue #9 has taken the PK tap at the correct mark and the offside Blue team-mates aren't interfering.

My reasoning, without looking in the law book: I don't think team-mates ahead of the PK-taker has a specific reference in the PK Law (20? I'm still not au fait with the renumbering), which means we have to use offside/onside in general play (Law 10 post renumbering?). In general play, being offside is not an offence in itself, but players are liable to penalty if they prevent an onside opponent playing as they wish or move forward towards the ball.

It's not C, because the requirement to retire only applies to offside lines established by ruck/maul/line-out or 10-metre law.

B and D aren't mutually exclusive - the general play offside law doesn't require the offside players to retire, but does forbid them from moving forwards toward the ball... though in the situation as described, this probably isn't possible since the ball is tapped behind them, and at the point the ball passes them they will have been put onside again anyway.

 

[Pablo]

As an aside, I'm quite enjoying these mini-quizzes. Bravo, crossref!

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

Mf fear is that its A because it is an incorrectly taken PK. Akin to the oft-seen "ball not leaving the kickers hands".
However, I would probably go with B in a game with the usual caveats as others have said as it was probaby not a material infringement.

So when the 9 takes a PK by tapping the ball in his hands onto his toe, and it isnt material , I would normally play-on but remind him to take the next PK properly. However, I did disallow a try about 3 weeks ago when the 9 did the same about 5 metres from the line and ran over. Clearly material and got an advantage in doing that , hence I blew for it.
I would apply similar empathy in this case too.

 

[Rich_NL]

I've always reffed it as B(/D) - there's a restart, players in front of teammate with the ball.

 

[crossref]

. However, I did disallow a try about 3 weeks ago when the 9 did the same about 5 metres from the line and ran over. Clearly material and got an advantage in doing that , hence I blew for it.
I would apply similar empathy in this case too.

I hope you made him take it again , as per the Laws

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

I hope you made him take it again , as per the Laws

I did on that occasion. There were questions afterrwards from the coaches as to why I had disallowed 'quick positive play' !.
Actually, now you mention it, where is the law that says they can take it again please ?

 

[didds]

Actually, now you mention it, where is the law that says they can take it again please ?

There isn;t one.

In the same way there isn't one saying they can't.

didds

 

[crossref]

So here is (what I believe is) the correct answer.

This is actually a surprisingly tricky question.

What does the Law say about taking a PK ?

[LAWS]
Law 20
TAKING A PENALTY OR FREE-KICK

5 A penalty or free-kick must be taken without delay.
6 Any player from the non-offending team may take it, other than for a free-kick awarded for a mark.
7 The kicker must use the ball that was in play unless the referee decides it is defective.
8 The kicker may punt, drop-kick or place-kick (other than for touch) the ball.
9 The kicker may kick the ball in any direction.
10 Other than the placer at a place-kick, the kicker’s team must remain behind the ball until it has been kicked.
11 The ball must be kicked a visible distance. If the kicker is holding it, it must clearly leave the hands. If it is on the ground, it must clearly leave the mark. Once the kick has been successfully taken the kicker may play the ball again
[/LAWS]

Note there is no sanction for any of those Laws, so they are requirements rather than infringements.

So the answer appears to be

E Take the PK again

But now we have a problem as that answer clearly flies in the face of convention : we never call back a quick tap because players are in front of the ball.

So for me (and this one is clearly my opinion, not an official answer, as it is not supported by Law, indeed I am advocating that we ignore Law 20.9 . ) I am going to follow convention and play on

So my decision is now to choose one of
B Play on (but offside in general play applies)
C Play on, but blue players must retire until put onside
D Play on, but blue players must stand still until put on side

At this point it's probably worth mentioning that until quite recently the Law used to say C, players must retire. That's a possibility we must therefore take seriously, but I think we have to reject it : we can't penalise a non-retiring player for an offence that is not in the Law Book , and the same must go for D

So IMO the best answer is

B Play on, but players in front of the kick are Offside in general play so cannot interfere with play

 

[Marc Wakeham]

This is where the re-write makes things awkward.

We had

Law 21.4 PENALTY AND FREE KICK OPTIONS AND REQUIREMENTS
2017

Sanction: Unless otherwise stated in Law any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throw in the ball.

So, the law was clear this would result in a scrum to the non-kicking team.

2018 is silent on this.

On one hand, applying the "no change" mantra. We can conclude that it is still a scrum with the opposing team throwing in.

HOWEVER!

The re-write also "clarified" existing practice. And that was to take the kick again (in 99.99% of cases).

So we have a quandry - All of the re-write committee's making and not picked up by WR.

Sorry crossref, but you can't say: "I hope you made him take it again , as per the Laws" Once again you are making claims of the laws that are just not true! didds corrects you well! Indeed you own subsequent post indicate that the claim is false.

What would I do in the Scenario?

If the Blue players being in front of the kick are not material I'l play on as per convention that as long as they retire and do not interfere (affect play) play on. If we look at 2018 law 12.18 (kick offs and restarts). After all, a PK is a form of restart, If they do then it is a scrum.

So "C" is my answer.

 

[crossref]

If offside players interfere with play the sanction is a PK, not a scrum.

For the scenario you have chosen C , they must actually retire

What is your sanction if they don't retire .. a PK ?
That's a gotcha PK given its for an offence that is not in the Law Book

 

[Rich_NL]

If the Blue players being in front of the kick are not material I'l play on as per convention that as long as they retire and do not interfere (affect play) play on. If we look at 2018 law 12.18 (kick offs and restarts). After all, a PK is a form of restart, If they do then it is a scrum.

No, it isn't - from the principle at the top of law 12:
"Kick-offs are used to start each half of the match or period of extra-time. Restart kicks resume play after a score or touch-down."

In a sense of course they do restart the game, but law 12 is explicit in its application.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

If offside players interfere with play the sanction is a PK, not a scrum.

For the scenario you have chosen C , they must actually retire

What is your sanction if they don't retire .. a PK ?
That's a gotcha PK given its for an offence that is not in the Law Book

If you read my answer I have already answered your question.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

No, it isn't - from the principle at the top of law 12:
"Kick-offs are used to start each half of the match or period of extra-time. Restart kicks resume play after a score or touch-down."

In a sense of course they do restart the game, but law 12 is explicit in its application.

It's a form of restart as you acknowledge. There is a logic to treating a quick tapped penalty the same as a quick 22 tap and go.

 

[menace]

This is where the re-write makes things awkward.

We had

Law 21.4 PENALTY AND FREE KICK OPTIONS AND REQUIREMENTS
2017

Sanction: Unless otherwise stated in Law any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throw in the ball.

So, the law was clear this would result in a scrum to the non-kicking team.

2018 is silent on this.

On one hand, applying the "no change" mantra. We can conclude that it is still a scrum with the opposing team throwing in.

HOWEVER!

The re-write also "clarified" existing practice. And that was to take the kick again (in 99.99% of cases).

So we have a quandry - All of the re-write committee's making and not picked up by WR.

Sorry crossref, but you can't say: "I hope you made him take it again , as per the Laws" Once again you are making claims of the laws that are just not true! didds corrects you well! Indeed you own subsequent post indicate that the claim is false.

What would I do in the Scenario?

If the Blue players being in front of the kick are not material I'l play on as per convention that as long as they retire and do not interfere (affect play) play on. If we look at 2018 law 12.18 (kick offs and restarts). After all, a PK is a form of restart, If they do then it is a scrum.

So "C" is my answer.

If offside players interfere with play the sanction is a PK, not a scrum.

For the scenario you have chosen C , they must actually retire

What is your sanction if they don't retire .. a PK ?
That's a gotcha PK given its for an offence that is not in the Law Book

Firstly the law re-write is IMO an effin mess and has created more confusion and contradictions than it has fixed.

In this scenario under the new rewrite it can be easily argued too that immediately after the tap we have open play.
"Open play: The period after a kick-off, restart kick, free-kick, penalty or set piece and before the next phase, or the period between phases of play, excluding when the ball is dead.".

So if there are team mates in front of the quick tap then they are now offside in open play and subject to law 10.
That law is pretty clear that if they dont interfere then they are fine....if they interfere with play (etc etc etc) then they are liablw for PK (but like anything...manage it so it's not a gotcha).

 

[crossref]

Marc you have got yourself into a right old muddle on this one !

 

[Rich_NL]

It's a form of restart as you acknowledge. There is a logic to treating a quick tapped penalty the same as a quick 22 tap and go.

I agree there is a logic to it, I'd just say that the lawmakers in their wisdom explicitly separate the laws for a DO. There's a logic to offside in open play and to retaking the kick too!

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Marc you have got yourself into a right old muddle on this one !

We disagree again. Still I'm not quoting an imaginary law book to justify my views.

 

[thepercy]

This is where the re-write makes things awkward.

We had

Law 21.4 PENALTY AND FREE KICK OPTIONS AND REQUIREMENTS
2017

Sanction: Unless otherwise stated in Law any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throw in the ball.

So, the law was clear this would result in a scrum to the non-kicking team.

2018 is silent on this.

On one hand, applying the "no change" mantra. We can conclude that it is still a scrum with the opposing team throwing in.

HOWEVER!

The re-write also "clarified" existing practice. And that was to take the kick again (in 99.99% of cases).

So we have a quandry - All of the re-write committee's making and not picked up by WR.

Sorry crossref, but you can't say: "I hope you made him take it again , as per the Laws" Once again you are making claims of the laws that are just not true! didds corrects you well! Indeed you own subsequent post indicate that the claim is false.

What would I do in the Scenario?

If the Blue players being in front of the kick are not material I'l play on as per convention that as long as they retire and do not interfere (affect play) play on. If we look at 2018 law 12.18 (kick offs and restarts). After all, a PK is a form of restart, If they do then it is a scrum.

So "C" is my answer.

You are forgetting 21.4.J (2017)

KICK TAKEN QUICKLY If the PK or FK is taken so quickly that players of the kickers team are still in front of the ball, they are not penalized for being offside. They must not stop retiring until they are onside...