[RBS 6 Nations] Bonus point trial in 2017

[didds]

I recall watching that match in a hotel room in Haslemere OB - none of the town pubs seems to be showing the game or were attractive enough to do so there!

didds

 

[DocY]

Wales achieved that in 1994 which was IIRC the first year an actual trophy was presented. They lost 15-8 to England at Twickenham, but England needed to beat them by 16 to lift the trophy themselves. It must have been a little embarrassing to receive the trophy immediately after the match under those circumstances!

I was there!

It was quite a strange atmosphere - the Welsh were disappointed because we'd just lost and the English were disappointed because they'd not won the championship!

As a Welshman, the trophy was little consolation (even Ieuan Evans looked like he was just going through the motions at the presentation). You're right that it was the first year there was a trophy - before that the championship was shared.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I find it interesting that encouraging try scoring is seen as one benefit of the bonus point system.
Yet this short study of one of last year's EPCR pools suggests that that just isn't so. Surely points difference must be taken into consideration?

The only problem I see (if it even IS a problem) is that in the 6N, three of the teams get the advantage of an extra home game. Add to that, if any of those teams gets a home game against the traditional whipping boy, Italy, then that is going to be quite a big advantage in terms of points for/against.

It would be interesting to see how may time teams have won it with three away games compared with winners with three home games, as well as where Italy fits in.

 

[OB..]

I was there!

So was I. (North Stand, IIRC).

 

[OB..]

It would be interesting to see how may time teams have won it with three away games compared with winners with three home games, as well as where Italy fits in.

Of the 17 6N Championships since Italy joined, 10 teams have won with three home games and 7 with two home games.

Italy have twice won 2 matches. In 2007 they beat Wales at home and Scotland away; in 2013 they beat France and Ireland, both at home.

 

[didds]

It would be interesting to see how may time teams have won it with three away games compared with winners with three home games, as well as where Italy fits in.

England last year for starters, including playing Italy away!

didds

 

[crossref]

Italy is the confounding factor in these analyses of home and away

The reality is : each team plays 2 home games, 2 away games, and Italy.

 

[L'irlandais]

Georgia want in, that'd probably suit Italy. They could start winning Year in Year out then.

Italy's Golden Era against Ireland, Italy has some world class players, all they need is financial backing and a bit of belief in themselves. The professional era raised Irish rugby to a new level, and arguably successive EPCR wins gave us the financial clout to win our first grand slam in the 2009 RBS 6 Nations. Georgia on the other hand already have the backing of a Billionaire, richer than USA's Gonald Drump.

 

[DocY]

Georgia want in, that'd probably suit Italy. They could start winning Year in Year out then.

Depends if it means relegation!

"The Seven nations" doesn't have a great ring to it. Mind you, I said that about the Six Nations!

 

[L'irlandais]

Relegation, now there's a thought! (Quote from outgoing World Rugby chairman Bernard Lapasset: )

A play-off would be between the team finishing bottom of the Six Nations and the winners of the second-tier European Nations Cup, which Georgia won this year.

Why not introduce a McMahon system tournament for 8 teams (as suggested elsewhere on RRF) Then the four strongest Nations play each other, and the four weakest Nations play each other. 1-4 from each pool play their opposite number.

Or even adopt the Cup, Plate, Bowl and Shield format from Sevens.
That way even the weaker teams get to play for some silverware. RBS Eight Nations 2018
Romania and Georgia could slug it out to avoid the Wooden Spoon.

 

[Rushforth]

Why not introduce a McMahon system tournament for 8 teams (as suggested elsewhere on RRF) Then the four strongest Nations play each other, and the four weakest Nations play each other. 1-4 from each pool play their opposite number.

I'd not previously come across McMahon, but am familiar with Swiss tournaments. I can't see any kind of Swiss working on a home and away basis, because of travel/accommodation bookings and such. There are no pools in Swiss, nor in McMahon as far as I can see. The only difference is on initial ranking for the bottom teams, which is somewhat ok for #6 of 6N, but potentially harsh for the #5, particularly in terms of gate revenue. That said, a Swiss system only takes three rounds to get "a" winner when there are eight teams competing.

No country wants to lose out on matches against the others, particularly home matches for Home Nations and France. However, team sides losing players don't want even more matches.

So pools it has to be, somehow. How? A double four nations, isles and continent, using the middle weekends for matches that don't count towards competition.

Weekends 1 & 2 for the home nations, would be against two of the other home nations, on a rotating basis, one home and one away, in a six-year cycle. France and Italy would host the top other continental countries one year for these first two weekends, and play each other on the second weekend, alternating home and away in a four year cycle.

In week 3 - currently the first rest weekend - the home nations would play their final home nations match on a 'friendly' basis, but still very much for ancient trophies, and perhaps as a tie-breaker if bonus points don't suffice.

The schedule for weeks 4-7 would depend on results from the previous years, on a 12-year cycle, with weekend 5 being a special case in which the French and Italians would compete with the two lowest-ranked home nations on a friendly

Obviously this isn't a complete proposal, but the essence of it is to split the competition in to four Swiss-style pools that each have four teams and hence only two rounds, which are played in weeks 1&2 of the previous year and weeks 6&7 of the current year. Week 4 remains preserved so that the current six nations are likely to play each other competitively. The greatest weakness of the system is that France probably only plays three of the Home Nations, but it - like Italy - is guarantueed two home fixtures which in the case of France could be used to give promising young internationals a place in the starting side. Both are guarantueed their place in the top 8 for all time, but neither can pick a B team in the opening weeks either.

It would make sense to have the final two weeks end in #1v#2 and then #1v#1 of the different pools, which makes week 4 be #1v#3 and #2v#4 cross-pool matches. Calling them H and C for home and continent, that makes week 4 be 1Hv3C, 2Hv4C, 3Hv1C and 4Hv2C; week 6 becomes 1Hv2C, 2Hv1C, 3Hv4C and 4Hv3C, and finally week 7 be 1Hv1C etc. Of course this makes being #1H likely to play France last....

Although this isn't a fully serious proposal either, it could be run for a transitional period of 12 or even 6 years before transitioning to a Europe-wide system of 4-country groups with relegation and promotion on a play-off basis, and either a home-and-away structure of 6 matches or traditional matches such as the Culcutta Cup being played as pre-tournament friendlies.

 

[OB..]

I hadn't heard of McMahon either, but it turns out I had re-invented it for use in local rugby. However the logistics of international rugby mean you have to plan too far ahead for such a system to be practicable.

Any pool system needs to be seeded to prevent the best teams all being in one pool, and logistics again might get in the way.

It would be nice if we could have a relegation system with a playoff between the bottom team and the challenger (to prevent flip-flopping). I suspect that isn't practicable either.

A quick check found 4 matches between Italy and Georgia (1998, 2000, 2003, 2010). Italy won all four times, but things may have changed now.

 

[Rushforth]

IF (that's a big if, not a typo) international rugby were the be-all and end-all, even IF only for a limited number of matches, then groups of 4 would make sense, more than once a year.

I'm more interested now though in the reinvention of a format of Swiss. Did it last long?

 

[didds]

It would be nice if we could have a relegation system with a playoff between the bottom team and the challenger (to prevent flip-flopping). I suspect that isn't practicable either.

It would add another game to what for most if not all players is an already full calendar. Fort the players involved it impacts their clubs more than anything who now lose them for another week (or two for training etc?) .

then there is the possible impact on whatever plans go into place for 12 months hence or even longer - Im thinking logistics and the knock on effects into the tourism trade here, but I may be over egging the pudding here of course.

didds

 

[didds]

Added to which while it doesn't address the issues of the Italy situation, nor aid development to the upper tier of the likes of Georgia, I doubt there is any interest from the supporters or the nations already involved, to change things. The 5/6N has its own cachet, and altering its format and coverage drastically would I feel be akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I have no ideas of how to overcome the Italy/Georgia scenarios I confess. The nearest I get to is OBs suggestion, which we have identified is probably unworkable.

didds

 

[DocY]

I can see a playoff between the bottom of the Six Nations and the top of the second tier Six Nations potentially working well. I think there should be some mechanism to allow teams access to the Six Nations - growing the game and all that.

TBH, I think the problem is Italy - they're probably somewhere between the two leagues. I realise they haven't played Georgia recently, but looking at other results I get the impression Italy would win comfortably (Georgia were thumped by a second-string Scotland - admittedly, I don't know how strong a Georgia team that was).

Perhaps they could defer the whole relegation/expansion question by playing a post-Six Nations friendly against Georgia (or whoever wins the second tier) - if Italy dish out a hammering, the whole question will go away for several years and if it is a close game (or Georgia win), it will expedite discussions.

Perhaps they don't want to take the risk!

 

[Ian_Cook]

Georgia were thumped by a second-string Scotland - admittedly, I don't know how strong a Georgia team that was).

This is a list of the 15 Georgian players that I know of who play in the French Top 14. There are likely to be even more in the ProD2 and I don't know how many more play the the Pro12 and/or AP

Karlen Asieshvili (Brive)
Jaba Bregvadze (Stade Toulousain)
Levan Chilachava (Toulon)
Mamuka Gorgodze (Montpellier)
Giorgi Jgenti (Montpellier)
Vasil Kakovin (Brive, Stade Toulousain)
Davit Khinchagishvili (Brive)
Viktor Koleilishvili (Clermont)
Davit Kubriashvili (Montpellier)
Konstantin Mikautadze (Toulon)
Mikheil Nariashvili (Montpellier)
Anton Peikrishvili (Agen)
Goderzi Shvelidze (Clermont)
Zurab Zhvania (Stade Français)
Davit Zirakashvili (Clermont)

Looking at the team lists... http://www.autumn-internationals.co.uk/2016/scotland-v-georgia.html ...there appear to be quite a few off that list present, so the Georgian team looks close to full strength, however, I don't think you can really call that a second-string Scotland team either.

 

[DocY]

I don't think you can really call that a second-string Scotland team either.

Fair point! My memory let me down!

 

[didds]

The issue with that friendly proposal is that Italy wold have nothing to gain really over the status quo, but everything to lose. Why wold they play it?

And all those club contracted players now have to find time away from their clubs .Which is the issue with the play-off game scenario also more generally speaking.


didds

 

[L'irlandais]

This is a list of the 15 Georgian players that I know of who play in the French Top 14. There are likely to be even more in the ProD2 and I don't know how many more play the the Pro12 and/or AP

Karlen Asieshvili (Brive)
Jaba Bregvadze (Stade Toulousain)
Levan Chilachava (Toulon)
Mamuka Gorgodze (Montpellier)
Giorgi Jgenti (Montpellier)
Vasil Kakovin (Brive, Stade Toulousain)
Davit Khinchagishvili (Brive) @ Bayonne
Viktor Koleilishvili (Clermont)
Davit Kubriashvili (Montpellier)
Konstantin Mikautadze (Toulon)
Mikheil Nariashvili (Montpellier)
Anton Peikrishvili (Agen)
Goderzi Shvelidze (Clermont)
Zurab Zhvania (Stade Français)
Davit Zirakashvili (Clermont)

Looking at the team lists... ...[/QUOTE]The situation is a littl... (Vienne) Simon Maisuradze (Avenir valencien)