[Line out] Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

[ChuckieB]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

I came across the above thread in the archives.

Not looking to drag it up but can someone please point me in the direction of the current state of affairs on this. I can't seem to lay my hands on anything more recent to help me understand whether the problem just melted away or there is a current official state of play.

The links no longer work and it might be just a simple pointer to the right law clarification guideline?

Separately and more specifically, within that thread there was mentioned the requirement to blow the whistle when the ball went into touch. I had been wondering and stumbled on this one as a good opportunity to ask the question. I have not found a whistle requirement being stated in the laws. Indeed to blow the whistle would in my mind stop play and immediately prevent the possibility of a quick throw in.

On what basis does the ball in touch require the whistle? I can see that in any other situation where the ball has to be called dead or where an option has to be given but, for the LO and the option for the QTI where the team throwing has some discretion to proceed of its on accord? For me the whistle is only required if the ref needs to call a halt to prevent the QTI?

Put me right please?

Cheers

CB

 

[tim White]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

6.A.8.e to indicate ball in touch BUT that does not prevent a QTI so long as all the criteria are complied with (not touched by another person, behind line of touch, not forward, same ball) Big shout of PLAY ON when it happens; reminder to us all to be ready for a QTI every time.

 

[ChuckieB]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

Thanks. Missed it somehow. Filters on the law book aren't good enough!

Relative to other requirements to stop play, it doesn't seem absolutely necessary, so had me thinking.

 

[VM75]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

fftopic:

Anyone know the forum record for total number of posts in the first two months since joining? :Nerv:

 

[Taff]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

About a year ago, we were told at one of our monthly meetings to expect an important announcement regarding being offside and preventing a QTI. Sadly we heard nothing more about it.

I get the impression that WR really likes QTIs and I suspect that eventually we will get told that offside players stay offside until the QTI option dies. Ie just because the ball has gone to touch, an offside player can't run forward to prevent a QTI. Ie while it's still a "zombie ball" don't interfere with play.

 

[ChuckieB]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

fftopic:

Anyone know the forum record for total number of posts in the first two months since joining? :Nerv:

I'll let that one go as not being material. Play On!

 

[Dickie E]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

Ie just because the ball has gone to touch, an offside player can't run forward to prevent a QTI. Ie while it's still a "zombie ball" don't interfere with play.

I understand that you are speculating however could an "offside" player form a lineout and thereby prevent the QTI?

 

[Pegleg]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

I thought that this was announced a while ago. A player offside before the ball went into touch could not prevent the QTI. I can't, at the moment find it though.

 

[Dickie E]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

I thought that this was announced a while ago. A player offside before the ball went into touch could not prevent the QTI. I can't, at the moment find it though.

that's partially right. Before the ball goes into touch the kicker's team mate can't move forward (or has to retire if within 10 metres of ball landing point). However, once ball in touch he is free to go where he wishes including competing for QTI (note: no-one is ever allowed to "prevent" a QTI).

 

[Balones]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

I came across the above thread in the archives.

Not looking to drag it up but can someone please point me in the direction of the current state of affairs on this. I can't seem to lay my hands on anything more recent to help me understand whether the problem just melted away or there is a current official state of play.

The links no longer work and it might be just a simple pointer to the right law clarification guideline?





Separately and more specifically, within that thread there was mentioned the requirement to blow the whistle when the ball went into touch. I had been wondering and stumbled on this one as a good opportunity to ask the question. I have not found a whistle requirement being stated in the laws. Indeed to blow the whistle would in my mind stop play and immediately prevent the possibility of a quick throw in.

On what basis does the ball in touch require the whistle? I can see that in any other situation where the ball has to be called dead or where an option has to be given but, for the LO and the option for the QTI where the team throwing has some discretion to proceed of its on accord? For me the whistle is only required if the ref needs to call a halt to prevent the QTI?

Put me right please?

Cheers

CB

Does this help? in this situation the player is moving forward but does touch on a player just being offside.
http://www.sareferees.com/News/law-discussion-offside-in-touch/2830006/

 

[Balones]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

There is also this that provides IRB (As it was then.) guidance.
http://www.sareferees.com/ref-replies/duty-ref-425--paul-dobson/2829553/

Unfortunately the IRB link looks as if it is broken.

Try this.
http://laws.worldrugby.org/?domain=9&guideline=5

 

[Pegleg]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

I understand that you are speculating however could an "offside" player form a lineout and thereby prevent the QTI?

For that to happen two of the throwing in side would need to do likewise. So I'd, probably, be happy that they also wanted a normal lineout. Obviously I'd want to see it in practice to make a definite call.

 

[Pegleg]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

Try:

http://laws.worldrugby.org/index.php?domain=9&guideline=5&language=EN


Works for me.

 

[Balones]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

Try:

http://laws.worldrugby.org/index.php?domain=9&guideline=5&language=EN


Works for me.

Is there an echo in here?:biggrin:

 

[ChuckieB]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

Yes thanks. I had seen the links were broken and it is never the most obvious place to find it when looking in the laws.

As ever they have a habit of including, along with a more obvious example, i.e. players advancing forward to the place of quick throw in, an example which is not so obvious, i.e. players having to retreat where the ball has landed behind them. In such a case I think it could be quite easy for the side for the side with the QTI to contrive some sort of penalty which then brings in its on set of issues.


I can see how it seems to have turned into a bit of a fudge. The idea was perhaps right but they then backed themselves into a corner with the existing laws. I am not precious about it. But for me at first reading, there is an argument that the ball is dead, all bets are off.

Depending on ones view on tactics you could also suggest it opens up a counter intuitive situation where a team values a potential loss in ground for the sake of risking the percentages and gaining some benefit from broken play, i.e. players being all over the shop, including their own. Too many are now just "going for it" without a bit of thought.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

I can see how it seems to have turned into a bit of a fudge. The idea was perhaps right but they then backed themselves into a corner with the existing laws. I am not precious about it. But for me at first reading, there is an argument that the ball is dead, all bets are off.

Before the ball went dead, all those players ahead of the kick were offside. Their infringement doesn't just go away just because the ball went out. If they prevent a QTi, they have used their offside infringing to gain an advantage and therfore, have materially affected play.

IMO, WR need to clarify that a ball in touch is still alive for the purposes of the Offside Law until the option to take a QTI has expired or has been abandoned by the throwing team.

Expired:
1. When a lineout has formed under Law 19.8 (a) or 19.2 (c). Offside players may approach the LoT for the purpose of forming a lineout but must not go beyond the LoT. Any player finding himself already beyond the LoT must immediately retire to a position of half a metre or more on his own side of the LoT. If the player is not sure where the LoT is or the AR has not yet marked it, they must keep retiring until the AR marks it.

2. When a QTi can no longer be taken under Law 19.2 (d). When another person has touched the ball apart from the player throwing it in or the player who took the ball into touch

Abandoned:
When the team throwing it in clearly have no intention of taking a QTi

 

[Taff]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

Try: http://laws.worldrugby.org/index.php?domain=9&guideline=5&language=EN

The problem with the All Black example in that video was that at least 5 All Blacks were offside and moving forward before the ball went to touch ie PK / Scrum option.

It's a pity though the video didn't give an example of what should happen if the offside players did not move forward ie if they waited for the ball to turn "Zombie" before moving forward. Would they have been "liable for sanction" then? I reckon they should - they are offside and have clearly gained an advantage from it.

 

[The Fat]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

If you keep it simple you will be able to referee the situation without having to dig through an encyclopedia in your brain to make a decision.

"Offside players must be dealt with even when the ball looks like it will go into touch because a quick throw may be an option. Once the ball is in touch, offside no longer applies and offside players may move forward toward a lineout or where a quick throw is being attempted".

If they are in an offside position and moving forward before the ball goes into touch, deal with them at that stage i.e. if it's a long kick down field, call once only to "Stop" or "Hold blue" or whatever and PK them if they don't. Don't wait for the ball to go into touch 30 metres further downfield and then play an extended advantage to "see what happens".

If blue kick from their own 22 and there are blue players on their own 10m line moving forward, ping them there. If the ball goes into touch 30m from red's goal line and they take a QTI, where do they need to get to before advantage has been gained? PK to touch from blue's 10m line is going to end up with a red lineout inside the blue 22. A red QTI some 48m back towards their own goal line is possibly never going to get back to a red lineout 18m from blue's line.

 

[ChuckieB]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

If you keep it simple you will be able to referee the situation without having to dig through an encyclopedia in your brain to make a decision.

"Offside players must be dealt with even when the ball looks like it will go into touch because a quick throw may be an option. Once the ball is in touch, offside no longer applies and offside players may move forward toward a lineout or where a quick throw is being attempted".

If they are in an offside position and moving forward before the ball goes into touch, deal with them at that stage i.e. if it's a long kick down field, call once only to "Stop" or "Hold blue" or whatever and PK them if they don't. Don't wait for the ball to go into touch 30 metres further downfield and then play an extended advantage to "see what happens".

If blue kick from their own 22 and there are blue players on their own 10m line moving forward, ping them there. If the ball goes into touch 30m from red's goal line and they take a QTI, where do they need to get to before advantage has been gained? PK to touch from blue's 10m line is going to end up with a red lineout inside the blue 22. A red QTI some 48m back towards their own goal line is possibly never going to get back to a red lineout 18m from blue's line.

practical guidance and would fit in with my natural preference of, moving towards the ball is always material. Do you call advantage or blow up straight away, thus closing off the option of the QTI if they are foolish enough to take it?

[This is where I am at odds with blowing the whistle just for a ball going into touch. In my view it should only be blown to stop play once available options are exhausted, and that includes qti's]

 

[The Fat]

Re: offside and preventing the quick throw - [a related question]

practical guidance and would fit in with my natural preference of, moving towards the ball is always material. Do you call advantage or blow up straight away, thus closing off the option of the QTI if they are foolish enough to take it?

[This is where I am at odds with blowing the whistle just for a ball going into touch. In my view it should only be blown to stop play once available options are exhausted, and that includes qti's]

Our instructions are call only once for offside players moving forward and if they don't stop (slowing down is not good enough) ping 'em. They are already having an effect by closing down options, including the likelihood of a QTI so why wait?