red card decision Canada v Scotland [MERGED]

RobLev

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A nice photo array that proves nothing and doesn't change my mind one iota. The arm coming forward is a natural action of running, used by erect walking primates as part of their balance system.

If you don't believe this, try running with your arms pinned firmly into your sides. Let me know how it went after you smashed your nose when you face planted into the ground because you lost your balance.

His right arm is going forward at the same time as his right foot. Normal people run with their left arm going forward with their right foot. See, for example, Usain Bolt et al.. It's actually easier to run with your hands by your sides than with right arm and leg going forward at the same time.

I do remember, however, a lad in my year at school who naturally marched with arm and leg on the same side in synch; even after watching him do it, however, the rest of us had extreme difficulty doing so.
 

Drift


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There follows a sequence of stills from the video in the OP:

Red #6 has just received the ball:

View attachment 2901

Red #6's right shoulder and elbow swinging forward:

View attachment 2902

Contact made (daylight between elbow and side):

View attachment 2903

Elbow forced back against Red #6's body by impact:

View attachment 2904

Fend-off starts:

View attachment 2905

and continues:

View attachment 2906

and concludes:

View attachment 2907

That's what I see; two movements with the elbow, one swinging into contact, the next following contact. The second is legitimate; the first is IMHO a deliberate swing of the arm. It's not part of his normal running action, because he's stepping with his right foot into the tackle.



True; but look at the sequence above. Two movements by the elbow.

No that is not two movement from the elbow. That is called running.

Rob you are wrong, this is play on every single day of the week.
 

Drift


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His right arm is going forward at the same time as his right foot. Normal people run with their left arm going forward with their right foot. See, for example, Usain Bolt et al.. It's actually easier to run with your hands by your sides than with right arm and leg going forward at the same time.

I do remember, however, a lad in my year at school who naturally marched with arm and leg on the same side in synch; even after watching him do it, however, the rest of us had extreme difficulty doing so.

He was bracing himself for contact, it's completely natural to do, especially if you are trying to break through the tackle.
 

RobLev

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No that is not two movement from the elbow. That is called running.

Rob you are wrong, this is play on every single day of the week.

Right arm and right leg in synch? That is not normal human locomotion. Try it. It feels completely unnatural.
 
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RobLev

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He was bracing himself for contact, it's completely natural to do, especially if you are trying to break through the tackle.

He's swinging his body round in preparation for contact, and if the right elbow hadn't swung away from the body as he went into contact, I'd entirely accept the point. But his elbow does swing away from the body, and it made first contact with the tackler. What do you understand by the phrase "leading with the elbow"?

Look at all the videos The BFG has been posting here; in none of them is the elbow swung into the contact.
 

Ian_Cook


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His right arm is going forward at the same time as his right foot. Normal people run with their left arm going forward with their right foot.

Mostly, but not always true.

I have to say, I am very, very surprised (and dismayed) that any referee thinks this is RC. Mike Fraser is a bloody good referee, but IMO he has dropped a bollock here.

As for the iRB saying no further action, well they are having a bob each way, probably because they don't want to make their panel referee look like a prat! To me that is a gutless cop out, even though their pronouncement of "no intent to injure" runs directly contrary to the referee's wording of "deliberate elbow to the head"
 

Ian_Cook


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Right arm and right leg in synch? That is not normal human locomotion. Try it. It feels completely unnatural.

It is when you brace for an impact.


Right leg forward

Right shoulder and arm forward

THIS is what the tackler should have done, and he would not have got hurt.
 
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Drift


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He's swinging his body round in preparation for contact, and if the right elbow hadn't swung away from the body as he went into contact, I'd entirely accept the point. But his elbow does swing away from the body, and it made first contact with the tackler. What do you understand by the phrase "leading with the elbow"?

Look at all the videos The BFG has been posting here; in none of them is the elbow swung into the contact.
These are leading with the elbow.
684020-fc76663e-f3c3-11e3-9eee-86d74a63fbdc.jpg

340425-fuifui-moimoi.jpg

638856-5dc2c176-f3b0-11e3-8ea9-a081f3513119.jpg



This is not:
jebb-sinclair-redcard.jpg
 

Ian_Cook


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Roblev

Nothing wrong with this...


..but according to your arguments in this thread, you would RC Hosea Gear, and disallow the try. Yes?
 

Chogan


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88 replies before Gear v Earls '12 was referenced. I'm a little surprised.
 

Browner

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No that is not two movement from the elbow. That is called running.

Rob you are wrong, this is play on every single day of the week.

Drift,
the judgement call is whether the player is deliberately trying to strike the potential defender with his forearm/elbow area.

I agree that the game has tended to let these kinda thrusts go unpunished ( and I recall sending the arm out when I played) but when I watch the clip i recognise the delivery of a deliberate driving forward forearm into the neck face area, not a bonafide hand off, or anything that looks like a attempt to fend.

I've also watched meninga v deveraux, lomu v Vickery, this hit on earls and the clattering of young Slade in England v barbarians, and in most cases the player was either cut, injured or who must've been close to a concussion type dazing.

So, given the power of players has grown so much ....
is there a case for relooking at the way these strikes are delivered?, after all the game did so with lift & tip tackles....and two thing are certain they hurt and they have real potential to concuss

??
 
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Ian_Cook


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88 replies before Gear v Earls '12 was referenced. I'm a little surprised.

I thought about it earlier but I wanted one with the Irish commentary for the sake of balance.
 

Drift


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Drift,
the judgement call is whether the player is deliberately trying to strike the potential defender with his forearm/elbow area.

I agree that the game has tended to let these kinda thrusts go unpunished ( and I recall sending the arm out when I played) but when I watch the clip i recognise the delivery of a deliberate driving forward forearm into the neck face area, not a bonafide hand off, or anything that looks like a attempt to fend.

I've also watched meninga v deveraux, lomu v Vickery, this hit on earls and the clattering of young Slade in England v barbarians, and in most cases the player was either cut, injured or who must've been close to a concussion type dazing.

So, given the power of players has grown so much ....
is there a case for relooking at the way these strikes are delivered?, after all the game did so with lift & tip tackles....and two thing are certain they hurt and they have real potential to concuss

??

I agree that having a re-look at the way those collisions are delivered, however under a re-look at this one it's still play on. The thing that caused this was the piss-poor positioning of the tackler's head.
 

Ian_Cook


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So, given the power of players has grown so much ....
is there a case for relooking at the way these strikes are delivered?, after all the game did so with lift & tip tackles....and two thing are certain they hurt and they have real potential to concuss

??

Well, that is a different argument. Last time I looked, you could not PK someone for something that you think ought to be an infringement.

Lets be really honest about this. Rugby is no longer just a contact sport, its a collision sport; with the size, speed, strength and power of the modern elite player, perhaps there is some merit in trying to mitigate the ferocity of body contact.

However. as far as this case is concerned, I cannot see how you aren't going to have tackler getting himself injured/concussed regardless of whether the ball carrier flicked an elbow out or not. Any small player who tries to tackle a big, strong player running at speed, with a body position like this...

bad-tackle1.png
bad-tackle2.jpg

[SUP]Off-balance, weight behind heels, not braced for impact , head too high and in the wrong place
[/SUP]

... is just asking to become road-kill
 

TNT88


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Wow. Must have been a niggly game in the lead up to that decision because in isolation it looks like a real soft call. Hope that doesn't become a new standard.
 

TheBFG


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at the end of the day, if the Sco had got up (a little embarrassed for missing the tackle) we would not be having a 10 page thread. I believe this has all come about cus the tackler was injured.

I understand what players are trying to do when they go high in the tackle, but watch these in the clip (suggest you turn the sound off though :wink: ) ignoring the middle couple, Little guy V BIG guy and they all come off worst, except the last one!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mTf7eo0zEUU
 

Ian_Cook


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Yep. Wee Peter Stringer shows how Little Guy brings down Big Guy. No matter how big or how strong or how powerful Big Guy is, no matter how fast he can run, he cant go anywhere with his legs shackled together at the ankles!!

Ruaridh Jackson (?) should watch that video so that he can learn how its done.
 

Camquin

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Oddly those were the words I use to my U15 Girls - many of whom are in their first season of rugby and just learning to tackle.
 

Browner

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The Scottish tackler was never going to be successful in that body position , obviously, whether he should receive a thrusted forearm/ elbow to the face is a matter of opinion, majority voters seem to think it is fine & play on.

Tackling styles have become more 'face on face' in their appearance over the years and I've seen more use of a leading forearm as a strike weapon because of this, i agree that the tackling style of players compounds these collisions but its disingenuous to say that they aren't on the increase.

The key to determining whether the elbow /arm is being used offensively is the finish position being away from the body, Red player definitely intended to strike blue, was it the worst I've ever seen, no. Was it merely a pushing away/fend of the player , no it wasn't. He knew what he was doing and any pretence otherwise should be ignored.

Continuity is better served by footwork and fend rather than lineup & bosh which is used to unsettle damage dominate and hurt your opponent, most forwards (big guys) recognise the opportunity that presented itself, the opportunity to give one of the littler backs a bit of a whack, and because of the injury and TMO use ...he got caught.

The concussion avoidance drive will see more of these incidents being sanctioned harder IMO, its inevitable.
 

Browner

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Oddly those were the words I use to my U15 Girls - many of whom are in their first season of rugby and just learning to tackle.

Makes you wonder why experienced players rarely do it....
 
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