red card decision Canada v Scotland [MERGED]

Bryan


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I think you're all missing the bigger picture here.

Once again a rugby minnow struggled against all the odds to victory, and was the lucky beneficiary of a very rare dubious call going in their favor.

:clap: [SlowClap]...nice move, nice move.

As for the incident, my first thought was "well, what else is he supposed to do to avoid the player?". I'm with those that see this more as poor timing (you know, b/c running) and a shitty tackle. The referee is going to use the TMO for "awkward" decisions. This came up last fall in a game in Philadelphia. One of those "bounce" tackles in NZ Maori v USA. Referred to TMO. No penalty; it was awkward, but it wasnt dangerous.
 

Phil E


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Piss poor tackling technique for an international player.........even a sweaty!
Ball carrier dips his shoulder in preparation for the impact, which players do a million times every Saturday.

Nothing to see here, move on.
 

pwhaling


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So when I got home last night I watched the video again on my TV (instead of my phone) and I have to say at full size I'm back in the play on camp. It looks like thw tackler fell into the red players arm. Damn it we were robbed.
 

RobLev

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Roblev

Nothing wrong with this...


..but according to your arguments in this thread, you would RC Hosea Gear, and disallow the try. Yes?

I've had a look at this, have thought about it, and know my answer. But rather than get into another flamefest, could you explain to me why you believe my arguments in this thread lead to the conclusion that Gear should have been red-carded? I might learn something.
 

RobLev

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I thought about it earlier but I wanted one with the Irish commentary for the sake of balance.

Just for information, (i) I tend not to listen to the commentary, although if the Ref/TMO/AR comms are audible, I do listen to them; and (ii) looking for better angles, I couldn't find a clip on YouTube that didn't have the Irishman saying that it was fair enough after initially thinking it was an illegal use of the elbow.
 

RobLev

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I agree that having a re-look at the way those collisions are delivered, however under a re-look at this one it's still play on. The thing that caused this was the piss-poor positioning of the tackler's head.

I agree that the tackle was poor; which led directly from the fact (obvious in the straight-on footage) that the SH managed to get himself wrong-footed by a lumbering lock-sized flanker :wtf:
 
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Ian_Cook


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I've had a look at this, have thought about it, and know my answer. But rather than get into another flamefest, could you explain to me why you believe my arguments in this thread lead to the conclusion that Gear should have been red-carded? I might learn something.

Watch the video from 1:30, it a slo-mo of the view from behind Gear. (video should go straight to it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBk6PjwsILA&t=1m30s

Now, recognise this?

"...his right elbow moves away from his body and strikes the tackler on the jaw. The elbow is then pushed back by the impact into his side, and then he uses the arm as a lever, but the elbow strike had already taken place by then."


Its quoted directly from your post #18, word for word, as justification for RC Jeb Sinclair. It describes the Gear fend near perfectly.

Note also that as Gear fends with his right arm, his right leg is going forward. This is contrary to your statement about human locomotion in Post #84

"Right arm and right leg in synch? That is not normal human locomotion. Try it. It feels completely unnatural."


In fact it is far more common this way that the way you suggested. If you watch fends taking place, you will see that they happen like this much more frequently than the other way around, because the ball carrier is fending from his "strong" side. A player who tries to fend a tackler to the right while his left leg is going forward is doing so from his "weak" side.

Also watch Gear's actions as he sees Keith Earls approaching from his right. He slows down to adjust striding and timing so that he does fend on his strong side. If Hosea Gear was a horse, he would be a great showjumper or eventer, because this is exactly what a great jumping horse does when approaching an obstacle; shorten/lengthen to adjust his stride to kick off on the strong leg.
 
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didds

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Just watched it 1st time.

play on.

Crap attempt to tackle, crap attempt frankly to brush the would be tackler away. Just crap all round really.

didds
 

chrismtl


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I'm going to say this as no one else seemed to bring it up, but a Canadian winger was knocked out of the game earlier on by a very similar incident in the 43rd minute. He went low, and the Scottish #12 led with both elbows a bit higher than the tackler and made contact to the head. I'd also say that the Canadian player was in a substantially better tackling position that the Scottish player who got injured. The ref didn't bother taking this to a TMO even though the Canadian player was forced to leave the field as well. If you watch the video, the Scottish player lands on his forearms, which by most peoples standards(based on the RC advocates) would constitute that his elbows were moving forward. I'm not sure why the ref decided to start calling this in the 76th minute and I'm sure with a bit of digging (possibly round 13 Blues vs Chiefs) we'll find plenty of identical non-calls from Mike Fraser.

Untitled_zps83de9cc8.png
 

TNT88


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There's no need to get tribal about it. There is a process to sort these disputes out, the player will probably be found not guilty and in future we as referees need to make sure we aren't rewarding poor tackling technique with foul play penalties.
 

FlipFlop


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TNT88 - do you have a link to the "not guilty" verdict?

I read he was found guilty, but sending of sufficient. Very different verdict. (impact on record etc)
 

TNT88


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Sorry I didn't realize it already went through the judicial process. If he was found guilty that is incredible, but if he received no suspension I suppose they are backing down in a sense.
 

RobLev

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Watch the video from 1:30, it a slo-mo of the view from behind Gear. (video should go straight to it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBk6PjwsILA&t=1m30s

Now, recognise this?

"...his right elbow moves away from his body and strikes the tackler on the jaw. The elbow is then pushed back by the impact into his side, and then he uses the arm as a lever, but the elbow strike had already taken place by then."


Its quoted directly from your post #18, word for word, as justification for RC Jeb Sinclair. It describes the Gear fend near perfectly.

Near only counts in hand grenades and horsehoes...

Note also that as Gear fends with his right arm, his right leg is going forward. This is contrary to your statement about human locomotion in Post #84

"Right arm and right leg in synch? That is not normal human locomotion. Try it. It feels completely unnatural."


In fact it is far more common this way that the way you suggested. If you watch fends taking place, you will see that they happen like this much more frequently than the other way around, because the ball carrier is fending from his "strong" side. A player who tries to fend a tackler to the right while his left leg is going forward is doing so from his "weak" side.

Also watch Gear's actions as he sees Keith Earls approaching from his right. He slows down to adjust striding and timing so that he does fend on his strong side. If Hosea Gear was a horse, he would be a great showjumper or eventer, because this is exactly what a great jumping horse does when approaching an obstacle; shorten/lengthen to adjust his stride to kick off on the strong leg.

A little context; my reference to human locomotion was in response to claims by various respondents that Sinclair's right arm was moving forward because he was running; it was that which I was addressing by pointing out that it wasn't natural to be moving the right arm forward with the right leg. That being said, I otherwise agree with what you say above.

There are a couple of relevant differences between Sinclair and Gear. The first is that I see Gear locking out (to borrow from weightlifting) the arm at the moment of impact with Earles - I don't see that from Sinclair, whose arm is still moving forward at the moment of impact with Jackson. That it seems to me is crucial - it's the difference between you striking the opponent with the elbow, and the opponent striking your elbow (in fact, in Gear's case it wasn't even the elbow, but the forearm - as Earles falls away, you can see Gear's wrist below the throat). There is also the fact that Earles tries to pull the arm down with his left hand; he fails, but the forearm rebounds upward as a result.

I certainly wouldn't have red-carded Gear - I can't see here the clear and obvious (to the TMO) elbow (or forearm) strike contrary to Law 10.4(a) that I see with Sinclair.

As an aside, while it played no part in my original reasoning, I am fortified in my view by Sinclair's actions as he leaves the field. He indicates that he kept his elbow tucked into his side; which on any view isn't correct (we all, I think, agree the arm moves forward before impact, and again after it, and the issue is the significance of that first arm movement).
 

Ian_Cook


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sinclairredcard.gif


I look at this piece of action over and over, and I just cannot see anything that even merits a PK, let alone any kind of card sanction. Initially I thought RC was harsh. Now it just looks completely wrong. This is play-on, all day long, every day of the week.

So far, 60 out of 74 voters in the poll agree. Only five think RC.


TNT88

Its not just a back down, it a cop out by the iRB, and a gutless one at that!
 

RobLev

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TNT88

Its not just a back down, it a cop out by the iRB, and a gutless one at that!

Do you know whether the decision not to penalise further will be published?
 

Rushforth


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[LAWS]10.4 (a) Punching or striking. A player must not strike an opponent with the fist or arm, including the elbow, shoulder, head or knee(s). Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

[LAWS]7.1 Playing a match ... A ball carrier may hand-off an opponent.[/LAWS]

http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?domain=2#let16

[LAWS]Hand-off: An action taken by a ball carrier to fend off an opponent by using the palm of the hand.[/LAWS]

http://www.onelook.com/?w=p?lm:elbow

Sorry, there are no words matching the pattern p?lm:elbow in the selected dictionaries.

Perhaps there is an unindexed dictionary down under in which palm means elbow?

Agreed that red is harsh, but I haven't seen the rest of the match. Would we be having this discussion if it were yellow?
 
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