Referees a threat to rugby !!!!!!

Ian_Cook


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So a personal attack from a mod on a poster? That's an interesting approach.

If that was a personal attack then I'll go he!

You know what people are entitled to their views even if it's incorrect.

Yes they are entitled to their views, even if incorrect.

What they are not entitled to do is to present the opinion as fact! Especially, to continue to present that opinion as fact even after it been proven as incorrect.

a: The statement was made "these articles only come out when the All Blacks lose". This purports to be and is presented as a statement of fact

b: I refuted the statement and posted an article of the same nature (criticising the referee) which was published after a match which the All Blacks won, probably due to a poor refereeing decision.

c: Therefore the original statement has bee proven false!

d: the poster continues to post the statement as fact, even after they have been proven incorrect. That makes them a liar (knowingly making a false statement).
 
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Toby Warren


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If that is a personal attack then I'll go he!

So you think it's acceptable for posters to call each other liars, and accuse them of spouting Bo&&ocks as usual - and that's not a personal attack?



(Hadn't heard the I'll go he for years - for non Kiwis it's a phrase meaning I'm shocked/suprised if my memory serves)
 

Toby Warren


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If that was a personal attack then I'll go he!



Yes they are entitled to their views, even if incorrect.

What they are not entitled to do is to present the opinion as fact! Especialy, to continue to present that opinion as fact even after it been proven as incorrect.

a: The statement was made "these articles only come out when the All Blacks lose". This purports to be and is presented as a statement of fact

b: I refuted the statement and posted an article of the same nature (criticising the referee) which was published after a match which the All Blacks won, probably due to a poor refereeing decision.

c: therefore the statement has bee proven false!

d: the poster continues to post the statement as fact, even after they have been proven incorrect. That means makes then a liar (knowingly making a false statement)

none of this makes it acceptable to be rude, swear and attack a poster.


Sadly there's too much of this here now - maybe it's me but think it's time to move away from this site now.
 

Dickie E


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- maybe it's me but think it's time to move away from this site now.

Toby, if I post a gratuitously offensive & inappropriate photo will that bring a smile to your lips and keep you at the party a while longer? :)

Cos I'll do it, you know.
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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complete from you bollocks as usual

View attachment 2971

Was there ever a time when all the top referees were on a par in terms of game management/empathy/consistency?

Even the "recent" retirees are a mixed bunch - Rolland, Kaplan, Lawrence B and Lawrence M, Dickinson.

There was always a top 2 or 3 and the rest - is the gap soooo wide now?
 

Ian_Cook


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Oops! Posted in error.
 
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Daftmedic


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He said empty "space" not empty "void"!. Spacetime is displaced/distorted by mass.... observable fact!

"Space" is a three-dimensional extent in which objects and events within our universe are positioned relative to each other. Space is unbounded, and considered to contain three linear dimensions at right angles to each other. Modern physics holds that it is part of a four-dimensional continuum known as spacetime (the fourth dimension not to be confused with a Eucldiean fourth dimension (N-space) as first described by Elte (1912), where the fourth dimension is an imaginary dimensions at right angle to each of the other three.

"Voids" on the other hand, are vast empty areas of our universe (containing very few, if any galaxies) situated between galactic supercluster complexes (or galactic filaments) . They were likely formed by periodic changes in the density of visible baryonic matter in the universe called "baryon acoustic oscillations". They exist due to mass collapse followed by implosion of the compressed baryonic matter in the Big Bang. They are thought to have started from small anisotropies largely due to quantum fluctuations in the early Universe, shortly after the "Planck" time. There seems to be a correlation between the locations of voids and temperature distribution of the Cosmic Microwave Background; most likely due to the Sachs–Wolfe effect. While colder regions appear to correlate with voids, the hotter regions seems to correlate with galactic filaments. The Sachs–Wolfe effect is not likely to be significant unless the Universe is dominated by dark energy, so the existence of these voids may well be physical evidence for dark energy.

No competent scientist would ever refer to space as "void". You should be careful to use correct terminology and defined terms otherwise your theories will come across as science-fiction or at best, crackpot physics.



 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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He said empty "space" not empty "void"!. Spacetime is displaced/distorted by mass.... observable fact!

"Space" is a three-dimensional extent in which objects and events within our universe are positioned relative to each other. Space is unbounded, and considered to contain three linear dimensions at right angles to each other. Modern physics holds that it is part of a four-dimensional continuum known as spacetime (the fourth dimension not to be confused with a Eucldiean fourth dimension (N-space) as first described by Elte (1912), where the fourth dimension is an imaginary dimensions at right angle to each of the other three.

"Voids" on the other hand, are vast empty areas of our universe (containing very few, if any galaxies) situated between galactic supercluster complexes (or galactic filaments) . They were likely formed by periodic changes in the density of visible baryonic matter in the universe called "baryon acoustic oscillations". They exist due to mass collapse followed by implosion of the compressed baryonic matter in the Big Bang. They are thought to have started from small anisotropies largely due to quantum fluctuations in the early Universe, shortly after the "Planck" time. There seems to be a correlation between the locations of voids and temperature distribution of the Cosmic Microwave Background; most likely due to the Sachs–Wolfe effect. While colder regions appear to correlate with voids, the hotter regions seems to correlate with galactic filaments. The Sachs–Wolfe effect is not likely to be significant unless the Universe is dominated by dark energy, so the existence of these voids may well be physical evidence for dark energy.

No competent scientist would ever refer to space as "void". You should be careful to use correct terminology and defined terms otherwise your theories will come across as science-fiction or at best, crackpot physics.

Ian. Are you have two different arguments on two different forums? :)
 

Phil E


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OB..


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Sadly there's too much of this here now - maybe it's me but think it's time to move away from this site now.
I agree this thread has been a waste of time. Browner provoked and Ian reacted. I am not interested in personal spats.

However there are other threads, so let's just ignore this one.
 

Dickie E


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Only two?
At the moment I think Ian could have an argument with himself!


Either that, or I have just stumbled into an episode of "The Big Bang Theory".
BAZINGA!

View attachment 2972

Don't forget he was king of his school's debating team
 

ddjamo


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obviously the system is flawed. I think that member unions should stop working with older referees, recruit only young refs that have very little playing or life experience, hyper promote them and jam them in where they don't belong...that should get this turned around in no time flat. oh - while they are at it - they should really piss off and alienate the middle aged guys so they don't come around to coach the young guys....now that should work.
 

SimonSmith


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So you think it's acceptable for posters to call each other liars, and accuse them of spouting Bo&&ocks as usual - and that's not a personal attack?

In the abstract:
If a poster has a history of posting factual inaccuracies
And continuing to do so even when his errors have been pointed out
And doing so with the sole aim of annoying another poster

Then yes, I think accusing them of talking bollocks is not inappropriate. I'd prefer it of the debate didn't descend to that level, but the starting point has to be: Post accurately, and post respectfully, and make sure you've read a ****ing article before you comment on it.

It's been a while since we've had a poster who has made me seriously consider leaving the forum, but we seem to have found one. And I'm not talking about Ian. He and I may disagree about a great many things, but I've never questioned his intent, or his overall contribution to the site.
 

Browner

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obviously the system is flawed. I think that member unions should stop working with older referees, recruit only young refs that have very little playing or life experience, hyper promote them and jam them in where they don't belong...that should get this turned around in no time flat. oh - while they are at it - they should really piss off and alienate the middle aged guys so they don't come around to coach the young guys....now that should work.

Spot on ddjamo.

The most complicated set of laws in any high profile sport on the planet, played by fast skillfull athletes all operating on the knife edge of legality, subjected to micro analysing that pro sport and slow mo review has brought.

If queried/complained at I always ask " what stops you refereeing?" , most answers are along the lines of " no chance - far too difficult"

Media led/ ex ref criticism does help this sport, or the grassroots ref bashers brigade. You find me an ex-ref who'd escaped criticism throughout his career ....its a short line!
 

Ian_Cook


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Ian. Are you have two different arguments on two different forums? :)

Err, yes, that was a bit of a cock up wasn't it?

The other one was a quantum mechanics debate on an astrophysics forum, about whether or not dark matter waves are what cause the effect that influences the results of Thomas Young's famous "double slit experiment", you probably know that one; light sometimes acts like particles, and sometimes like waves. I wondered where that post went to.

That's what you get for having two forum pages open in adjacent tabs, especially when both use the same version of vBulletin and both have the same vBulletin default favicon. I was also involved in a third simultaneous debate regarding the effectiveness of shielding used to protect the Apollo 11 - 17 Command Modules from the radiation in the Van Allen Belts. At least I managed to post that one in the right place.
 

Phil E


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We are DEFINITELY in an episode of 'The Big Bang Theory' :shrug:
 

ChrisR

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American Football (gridiron) rules are complicated, Rugby laws are not. They are simply poorly expressed in the IRB Laws of the Game leading to variable interpretations by individuals, regional or national bodies. I don't think that this is such a huge issue unless an individual referee just gets it wrong.

I think that the issue that has put the top level referee under the microscope is the pressure to 'mould the game'. Then what is being allowed and what is being punished gets to be somewhat arbitrary and the use of cards exacerbates the problem and then the referee is seen to be inserting themselves into the game.

HD TV and slo-mo replays may show what happened but they don't show you what the referee saw or what his thinking was.
 

4eyesbetter


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American Football (gridiron) rules are complicated, Rugby laws are not. They are simply poorly expressed in the IRB Laws of the Game leading to variable interpretations by individuals, regional or national bodies. I don't think that this is such a huge issue unless an individual referee just gets it wrong.

I wouldn't say that the rules of pointy football are complicated so much as there's just an awful lot more of them than you find in non-American sports, but the thing is that 20% of the rulebook covers 80% of the situations that will happen during an average game. Most every individual rule (of course, there are exceptions) is clear and precise and easy to understand as long as you have a basic understanding of the sport.
 

The umpire


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there's just an awful lot more of them than you find in non-American sports,

Have you seen the Rules of Golf? Not to mention the seemingly, if not actually, annual inch thick "Decisions on the rules of golf" and that's for a really simple game - "The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes"
 
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