reversing decision for retaliation

Fatboy_Ginge


Referees in England
Joined
Dec 14, 2012
Messages
126
Post Likes
29
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
Womble,

I know where you're coming from but as I read it the main fight started with the retaliation from White on Red. After all is said and done that is what would have reversed the penalty in the first place. Everything else is surely follow on from that point. If Red get a 3 point advantage from a PG after this then the White player shouldn't have have punched the Red. If it all hadn't kicked off isn't that the likely outcome anyway?
 

Browner

Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
6,000
Post Likes
270
PK against the late tackler [ if it was a bona-fide qualifying offence then 'Card him as severity demands' ..... call both captains & inform of your severity rating & decision - it's not a debate though ]

Then a reversed PK against the first Retaliator [ & a definate YC for punching, as retaliation isn't permitted ] Coz he didn't let you manage the late tackle offence

I'd tell both captains to INSTRUCT the players to let me manage all 'foul play' decisions, and then i'd YC one each of all the players who joined in [call it.... repeated offender unluck to whoever gets singled out]


*****************************************************************************************

Cueto & Tuilagi with Moody joining in springs to mind [ albeit I think Cueto got off ! ]
 
Last edited:

Womble

Facebook Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2012
Messages
1,277
Post Likes
47
Current Referee grade:
National Panel
Womble,

I know where you're coming from but as I read it the main fight started with the retaliation from White on Red. After all is said and done that is what would have reversed the penalty in the first place. Everything else is surely follow on from that point. If Red get a 3 point advantage from a PG after this then the White player shouldn't have have punched the Red. If it all hadn't kicked off isn't that the likely outcome anyway?

IMO the first offence is the late hit! thats what started it all off, We have then had a handbag session that included the punch from the white player. I don't condone retaliation but try to not ping it. It's not tiddlywinks (Taffy you there?) and the players will give you more respect if you bollock the white player for his retaliation and ping the red late hit! This is my opinion and not one theat I have been taught.....
 

Fatboy_Ginge


Referees in England
Joined
Dec 14, 2012
Messages
126
Post Likes
29
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
I see where you're coming from there. Would I have refereed it like that, I don't know but I certainly respect your opinion and as you're a far more experienced referee than me will take it on board. (all constructive criticism welcome)
 

The Fat


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
4,204
Post Likes
496
Where does the law give the criteria for reversing a penalty? Where does it give guidance on which type of foul play is considered the more serious?

It is surely well established that reversing a penalty is a judgement call by the referee.

Retaliation 10.4(l)
Retaliation would have to be anything but the first offence and the sanction under Law 10.4(l) is a PK.
In most cases where retaliation takes place, I would say the ref would reverse the PK.
In extreme cases where lets say white #5 tip tackles blue #12 and forcably and violently spears him head first into the ground followed by blue # 2 retaliating by smacking white #5 in the chops, I suppose that there would be a level of agreement if the ref RCed white 5, YCed blue 2 but stayed with the original PK against white 5. Or in the case where in a ruck white player is dangerously twisting blue player's neck off whilst "cleaning out" and blue player, fearing for his own safety, smacks white player between the eyes.
However, in both cases, 10.4(l) says that the retaliation should receive a PK (and therefore a PK reversal even though not specifically written as such).
Some may see the reversal as unfair based on the severity of the offences committed however, the RC for each of the white players should square things up.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,959
Post Likes
1,822
However, in both cases, 10.4(l) says that the retaliation should receive a PK (and therefore a PK reversal even though not specifically written as such).
There is nothing automatic about reversal for retaliation. I have seen many cases where the referee talked to the retaliator but stuck with a PK for the original offence.
 

Dixie


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
12,772
Post Likes
338
There is nothing automatic about reversal for retaliation. I have seen many cases where the referee talked to the retaliator but stuck with a PK for the original offence.
And I've seen many instances in which the scrum half fed the ball into the second row's feet right in front of the ref's nose - but that is not to say that the ref acted correctly. So what does the law say?

(l) Retaliation. A player must not retaliate. Even if an opponent is infringing the Laws, a player must not do anything that is dangerous to the opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick


As I read this, there are two possible scenarios: a) ref has not seen the offence retaliated against; b) ref has seen and will penalise the offence retaliated against. In the first, the retaliation is liable to penalty, though perhaps not for retaliation since the ref has not seen the action that caused the retaliation, so cannot presume it to have taken place. Thus, a retaliatory punch is just a punch or strike: 10.4(a). In the second, we are firmly in the land of 10.4l, but that does not require the turnover. As with all instances of two offences in quick succession, the worst is likely to be the one ultimately penalised. So when we see Schalk Burger with his fingers deep in a player's eye sockets, we aren't going to restart with a PK against the victim of that who managed to land a punch to Burger's body - either during or after the event.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,959
Post Likes
1,822
Dixie - so we agree it is down to the referee's judgement?
 

Dixie


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
12,772
Post Likes
338
Dixie - so we agree it is down to the referee's judgement?
Absolutely. But while I think I can spot it if I see it, I can't give much help to anyone who would like guidance to do the same because they haven't spent years playing the game.
 

john g


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
98
Post Likes
2
So you've reversed the decision for retaliation what if the late tackler, retaliates, do you reverse the reverse decision :confused:
 

Davet

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,731
Post Likes
3
??
You have blown the whistle after the 1st retaliation, the game is stopped and the original late tackler then wades in and punches the guy who punched him?

Very very very loud whistle - you are about to get a 30 man man brawl, the whistle may stop it happening ..... but probably won's. Get ready to observe who then does what to whom.

When the dust settles red card the original late takler for the secondary retaliation, red card someone from the other team who ran in from a distance and punched an opponent - there will be one - read riot act to captains - restart with the PK against the original retaliation. - be prepared for criticism, many will say you can't ref like that.

Treat such comments with scorn, and show that your actions actually calmed the game down, and let rugby break out - which they will do and which, frankly, is the objective.
 

Robert Burns

, Referees in Canada, RugbyRefs.com Webmaster
Staff member
Joined
Nov 10, 2003
Messages
9,650
Post Likes
7
Loud shout of PLAY ON! followed by me following the most switched on player who takes the ball towards the goal line, they'll soon break up and after all, it's only handbags, they'll all be friends in the bar afterwards as we laugh how one team won by 4 points as a result of them handbagging each other and not defending their goal line.
 
Top