ruck in goal

blobs


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can the attacking side dive in to a ruck where the ball is in the ruck in goal in the defending side ie diving in to the ruck and putting their hands on the ball to score a try ?
 

Decorily

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Firstly it won't be a 'ruck' in the ingoal area. But yes an attacking player could dive on a ball in the ingoal to score.
 

Decorily

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I'm guessing the defending side took the ball back in to the ingoal from a ruck to attempt a clearance kick etc.
Once the ball is over the goal line the ruck has ended and an attacking player can come around (from what was originally an onside position ) and ground the ball to score.

Is this the scenario you refer to?
 

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yes, thanks. so you can't dive on a ball when the ruck has ended in field of play but you can in goal
 

crossref


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I think this is actually a good question

16m Players must not:
a Pick the ball up with their legs
B.Intentionally collapse a ruck or jump on top of it
c. intentionally step on another player.
d. Fall onto, or over, the emerging ball while it is on the ground near to the ruck.

Does d apply if the ball emerges from a ruck, and is in goal ?

I think it doesn't
 
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didds

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yes, thanks. so you can't dive on a ball when the ruck has ended in field of play but you can in goal
well yes and no.

in that once thye ball is in goal there is no ruck :) its just a ball in goal :)
 

didds

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I think this is actually a good question



Does d apply if the ball emerges from a ruck, and is in goal ?

I think it doesn't
presumably becasue once the ball is in goal it isnt a ruck?
 

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Yes, but it has just emerged from a ruck .. (and it has emerged and crossed the goal line)
I can only see this happening if someone spills the ball or rucks it out over-enthusiastically. As long as it’s on or over the line then you can’t form a ruck so first body to drop onto the ball gets a try/touchdown depending on the team (and assuming no foul play or offsides before).

Anyone picture other scenarios?
 

crossref


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I can only see this happening if someone spills the ball or rucks it out over-enthusiastically. As long as it’s on or over the line then you can’t form a ruck so first body to drop onto the ball gets a try/touchdown depending on the team (and assuming no foul play or offsides before).

Anyone picture other scenarios?
Agreed, but it's illegal to drop onto a ball that has just emerged from a ruck
 

didds

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Agreed, but it's illegal to drop onto a ball that has just emerged from a ruck
so we have a dichotmy? Or not?

if the ball squirts out behind the goal line - its not a ruck.
if its in front of the goal line but the ball ends up in goal its open to touchdown?
or if the scorer stayed on their feet and leant down and pressed it with a hand its a try? but not if they dived on it ?
 

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If it was a ruck and ball squirts out and touches the goal line, then rick is over, but it's illegal to dive on the ball (technically) but in practice I assume every ref would allow it
 

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so we have a dichotmy? Or not?

if the ball squirts out behind the goal line - its not a ruck.
if its in front of the goal line but the ball ends up in goal its open to touchdown?
or if the scorer stayed on their feet and leant down and pressed it with a hand its a try? but not if they dived on it ?
Agreed on the "if its in front of the goal line..." it's open to a touchdown. However, for me, if the ball is on the goal line or in-goal and we have no ruck, then the player isn't dropping on the ball per se but attempting to ground the ball. For me that is fair play, and no penalty for killing the ball.

If it's not in goal, then for this scenario *as the ruck has ended* and it's now open play - if a player drops on/over the ball then they have to immediately get up/out the way or play the ball.

Which leads on to another thought... if the ball squirts out from in-goal and we've decided the ruck is over (and for me the ball is in open play) and the ball ends up back just inside the field of play. Player drops onto the ball, and then shoves it onto the goal line. For me, if that is an immediate movement and I'd treat as a fair grounding - if there is a delay then a PK for playing the ball on the ground.
 

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If it was a ruck and ball squirts out and touches the goal line, then rick is over, but it's illegal to dive on the ball (technically) but in practice I assume every ref would allow it
Near a ruck, yes - but for me the prohibition of falling onto a ball near to the ruck only applies during the ruck. Once on or over the goal line the ruck is over. In the case where the ball is in the FoP, then to me that's open play and we have:
13.1 Players, who go to ground to gather the ball or who go to ground with the ball, must immediately:
a. Get up with the ball; or​
b. Play (but not kick) the ball; or​
c. Release the ball.​


As long as they immediately do one of those actions, then I'm OK with the previous action of dropping on the ball.
 

crossref


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Players must not
Fall onto, or over, the emerging ball while it is on the ground near to the ruck


By definition when the ball leaves the ruck, the ruck is over, so this Law only ever applies after a ruck is over.
(Really this Law should say ex-ruck)
 

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Players must not
Fall onto, or over, the emerging ball while it is on the ground near to the ruck


By definition when the ball leaves the ruck, the ruck is over, so this Law only ever applies after a ruck is over.
(Really this Law should say ex-ruck)
So it all comes down to whether the ruck is over - and the laws kinda chase themselves on this in my mind.

In the LOTG we have:
Definitions
Near: Within one metre

Laws
13.1 Players, who go to ground to gather the ball or who go to ground with the ball, must immediately:
a. Get up with the ball; or​
b. Play (but not kick) the ball; or​
c. Release the ball.​

15.16. (During a ruck) Players must not:
d. Fall onto, or over, the emerging ball while it is on the ground near to the ruck.​

15.18 (Ending a Ruck) The ruck ends and play continues when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball in the ruck is on or over the goal line.

So if the ball comes out, is on the FoP and...
...>= 1m away - Ruck over, Open play, have at it including dropping since you're "going to ground to gather the ball".​
...within 1m - Ruck over, Open play, have at it unless you drop on the ball as you now "fall onto, or over, the emerging ball" and we're still "during the ruck" and have penalty against you.​

Maybe less ex-ruck and more Schrodinger's ruck?

But based on that, for the back on FOP example does that make the distance from the ongoing/ended ruck the material factor?
 

didds

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we still come down to the wierd dichotmy then where maybe

dive on the ball tos core = PK against
step forward and put a hand down on the ball = try

real difference = none
 

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we still come down to the wierd dichotmy then where maybe

dive on the ball tos core = PK against
step forward and put a hand down on the ball = try

real difference = none
For me I think it boils down to a ruck can only occur in the FoP. Even if there was a loose ball in-goal and several players from each team stood over it and pushed to their hearts content it is never a ruck.

The simplest case first: The ruck forms just outside in-goal, so still on the FOP, and the attackers push the defenders back in-goal and the ball squirts out. The ruck has ended because it moved in goal, and it is still dead even if a player drops on a ball near what was a ruck since the ruck cannot be resurrected as the group of players are still in-goal.

If the ball squirts out in-goal then any player dropping on it is not "falling" onto the ball but looking to ground it and that's how I'd ref it

If the ruck is in-goal but the ball squirts out into the FoP - say from overzealous rucking by an attacker - then even if the ball was within 1m of the former ruck I'd treat as open play as, again, the ruck moved in-goal and cannot re-form.

The more awkward case is the ruck is in the FoP and up close to goal line with the ball is still in the FOP when the ball makes a run for it.

If the ball is ejected and goes back into in-goal or onto the goal line then the ruck is over and cannot be re-formed - so as above the ball is open for grounding.

I think this covers the OP, at least my view.

(The final variation would be that the ruck is only just in the FOP and the ball squirts out and stays just in the FOP - but then it's just a standard ruck and the usual laws including 16.d would apply.)

Yep, I could definitely have worked that out in the split second I'd have as the ball spat out and the team just stared at it for a moment...
 

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Wouldn’t a player falling on ball in field of play near ruck be a penalty (so no option to move ball immediately and score) but if the ball is in goal then player would then touch the ball down rather than having fell on the ball? So not possible to fall on the ball in goal, unless the ball wasn’t touched down correctly?
 

blobs


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the scenario I had was what would have been a ruck in the field of play but the defending side was in goal. Attacker dived in to the defending side of what was would have been a ruck in the field of play. Fair play to have attackers diving in ? I have had this on 2 occasions and given a 5 metre penalty to defending side but not sure this is right as there is no ruck and anyone can do what they like, including diving on the ball ?
 
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