"Ruck won" or "Ball lost" or "Let it come"

Dan_A

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Watching the TV you often hear the referee say "Ruck won" or "Ball lost" or "Let it come". What are players supposed to understand from this?

A refereeing mate of mine told me that he had been told by some coaches that he should be calling "Ruck won" and that the defending team should "stop counter rucking" at this point. Anyone heard this before? To me there is nothing in the laws to support this?
 

beckett50


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At the dizzy heights it basically means that the wrestling for ball must stop and that the #9 is digging for the ball (and so is NOT fair game at that point!)
 

crossref


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I think beckett is right : it means the ball is one one side and the other team have no chance of winning it, so let the #9 dig for it and get it away. Otherwise we are heading for unplayable and a scrum, and no one wants that.
 

Dan_A

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That kind of makes sense and the players should then leave the 9 alone. But there's absolutely nothing that says that they can't continue to try to counter ruck, right? If they drove over the ball they could still win it?
 

Browner

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I think beckett is right : it means the ball is one one side and the other team have no chance of winning it, so let the #9 dig for it and get it away. Otherwise we are heading for unplayable and a scrum, and no one wants that.

...other than an opposition with a vastly superior scrummage ability !
 

Dave Sherwin


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I wouldn't interpret it as "no point counter-rucking". Instead, I believe players should take it as an indication that the jackler has not survived the clearout, or is off his feet etc. and that thus the only defender(s) with the right to contest for the ball with their hands has "lost" those rights and no-one should go back with hands. If they want to successfully counter-ruck, no problem. Nigel Owens uses "ball lost now", and I have seen him subsequently allow the defending side to counter-ruck and win the ball.
 

Dan_A

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Dave - yep, I have heard Nigel Owens saying this and your explanation works for me.
 

ChrisR

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That kind of makes sense and the players should then leave the 9 alone. But there's absolutely nothing that says that they can't continue to try to counter ruck, right? If they drove over the ball they could still win it?

This is a management issue. Yes, there is no prohibition against counter rucking just as there is no law that allows the #9 to get his hands in the ruck. However, we let the #9 dig for it as otherwise the ball would more often be unplayable. And that can put him in a very vulnerable position if the ops counter ruck. Therefore hold the counter rucking as he excavates.
 

FlipFlop


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It generally means (in my view) that: (in elite game)

There is a "ruck" with lots of people doing illegal things (like going off feet, not rolling away) and your team has infringed more than the other team, so I'm not going to let you do something legal, so that I don't have to blow a PK, for a "minor" offence. This allows me to say that the original infringement was not material.

Or to phrase another way: Defending team has infringed, Ref gives the attack the ability to get the ball away not under pressure. Then no advantage, or PK required.
 

Dixie


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This is a management issue. Yes, there is no prohibition against counter rucking just as there is no law that allows the #9 to get his hands in the ruck. However, we let the #9 dig for it as otherwise the ball would more often be unplayable. And that can put him in a very vulnerable position if the ops counter ruck. Therefore hold the counter rucking as he excavates.
I disagree. Dave Sherwin's view is in line with my own; it is not the prevention by the ref of a legal act (counter-ruck) in order to protect a #9 carrying out an illegal act (handling in the ruck), but rather a way to tell the jacklers that they have to cease and desist efforts to handle the ball.
 

Browner

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It generally means (in my view) that: (in elite game)

There is a "ruck" with lots of people doing illegal things (like going off feet, not rolling away) and your team has infringed more than the other team, so I'm not going to let you do something legal, so that I don't have to blow a PK, for a "minor" offence. This allows me to say that the original infringement was not material.
Or to phrase another way: Defending team has infringed, Ref gives the attack the ability to get the ball away not under pressure. Then no advantage, or PK required.

Ah ha... Boom Baby! ........ A low 'PK count' game management strategy.

A debate on the pros and cons of this for showbiz v semi/pro v top amateur v grassroots , may now commence.
 

Accylad


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It is not uncommon for me to say something like "it's lost red, let it come for blue". It happens when there has been a contest for the ball leading to a mess with bodies on the floor. A counter ruck is difficult or impossible without trampling players on the ground and letting a contest continue would result in a scrum at best. The ball is blue side and with a bit of encouragement he can get the ball out and the game continues.

It works. Never had a murmur of issue from players coaches, or assessor (I don't avoid doing in assessed games so imagine I must have done it!"
 

Ian_Cook


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I wouldn't interpret it as "no point counter-rucking". Instead, I believe players should take it as an indication that the jackler has not survived the clearout, or is off his feet etc. and that thus the only defender(s) with the right to contest for the ball with their hands has "lost" those rights and no-one should go back with hands. If they want to successfully counter-ruck, no problem. Nigel Owens uses "ball lost now", and I have seen him subsequently allow the defending side to counter-ruck and win the ball.
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