SA v Eng scrum dominance

[Stu10]

We also have to remember, sometimes one scrum is just better than the other. Whether that is through strength or just technique. We just have to do our best in interpreting what is in front of us. Easier said than done though

Sometimes one scrum is just better than the other, but the driver for my original post is about patterns and what has happened before... for example, Eng v NZ was a good competition in the scrum, Eng v Fr, Eng v Arg (just about), SA v NZ, SA v Fr, SA v Arg... all decent competitions... but SA v Eng was a massacre last Saturday (and in the last WC). Why the bigger than normal difference in this fixture? Or maybe I've got rose tinted glasses on and SA are doing this to everyone and/or England's scrum can't compete with any top tier opponent?

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Well that goes without saying.

 

[DocP]

Sometimes one scrum is just better than the other, but the driver for my original post is about patterns and what has happened before... for example, Eng v NZ was a good competition in the scrum, Eng v Fr, Eng v Arg (just about), SA v NZ, SA v Fr, SA v Arg... all decent competitions... but SA v Eng was a massacre last Saturday (and in the last WC). Why the bigger than normal difference in this fixture? Or maybe I've got rose tinted glasses on and SA are doing this to everyone and/or England's scrum can't compete with any top tier opponent?

There has been a shift over the last 5 years in the Eng scrum. For instance, we don't pick big locks anymore, we have players that can cover both lock and back row, i.e. Itoje, Laws, Coles. The big weighted units like Launchberry etc are gone. The FR is now much more dynamic, and smaller. Someone like Genge is amazing with ball in hand around the park but I have always thought struggles with the actual art of scrummaging. You need someone like Marler, a big technical scrummager, back in the FR to stop the sheer power dominance. SA are big and powerful. At the top level the only way to combat that is to be big and powerful as well. I have now watched the game. The way Stuart gets crumpled towards the end, that is basically down to sheer size and strength. Same with Mako in the first half.

For SA my starting FR for Eng would be Marler, George, Sinckler. All still good around the park but the penalty count wouldn't be nearly as high. As for the locks, Ribbans and Hill but Hill has to stop giving silly pens away. Itoje just declare himself a 6. Curry at 7, Dombrant at 8 when fit. Simmonds to back up. Billy V didn't achieve anything in open play as he isn't the big powerful presence against SA as he is against other nations.

You then still have to counter the "bomb squad" at 60 mins. The SA FR went from an average height of about 5'8" to 6'2" at that point. So a more powerful fresh FR at 60 mins. Where does that leave the more dynamic players, Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Stuart. Not sure. Is SA the exception where they don't get picked. Not sure that would even work with the way sides train together etc. It is a real tough one.

 

[Camquin]

Binding on the arm and failing to bind are full penalty offences - for a good reason.
So how can a referee ignore it.
Looks like a deliberate offence to me.

 

[didds]

Binding on the arm and failing to bind are full penalty offences - for a good reason.
So how can a referee ignore it.

This.
Its an easy spot as it doesnt require watching the ball and the other side and the backline etc etc all at the same time.As soon as "set" uis called, quick look. AR does the other side. POP.

 

[SimonSmith]

There has been a shift over the last 5 years in the Eng scrum. For instance, we don't pick big locks anymore, we have players that can cover both lock and back row, i.e. Itoje, Laws, Coles

Also known as the late 70s/early 80s Scotland experiment. Ask me how well that went for us....

 

[shebeen]

OK, I've gone there, the Eng v SA game at the weekend. Arguably a couple of contentious tries, but I don't want to focus on that, or intentionally focus on the referee, but I do wonder about the scrums. (This is intended to be separate from my question in the scrum sub-forum).

I'll agree that SA have a monster scrum, and that it is stronger than the England scrum; but it almost looked liked men vs boys at times. As I recall, SA also destroyed the Eng scrum in the last WC Final.

This is what troubles me... the Eng scrum is not terrible and have held their own vs pretty much all other nations. I don't recall seeing SA take apart other team's scrums the same way they dismantled the Eng scrum. Am I mistaken with this thinking? Do SA have a secret method that is double effective vs England. As a ref, do you wonder and scrutinise when a scrum contest is more one-sided than expected or just go with it?

In the 2019 WC final, tighthead Kyle Sinkler clashed heads with Maro Itoje's elbow after 3 minutes and was out for the count. The replacement had to play almost an entire game and got bullied.

What's interesting is that the WC winning forwards coach Matt Proudfoot is now with england so it can't be a technique/dirty tricks thing (if that is what you're insinuating). The 6 front rankers in a matchday squad for SA would walk into most international teams.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1597142630005379072

 

[Stu10]

I believe this helped them. copied from twitter. View attachment 4489

I've just also noticed, look at green 3's right hand bind... that doesn't look right to me.

 

[shebeen]

Sometimes one scrum is just better than the other, but the driver for my original post is about patterns and what has happened before... for example, Eng v NZ was a good competition in the scrum, Eng v Fr, Eng v Arg (just about), SA v NZ, SA v Fr, SA v Arg... all decent competitions... but SA v Eng was a massacre last Saturday (and in the last WC). Why the bigger than normal difference in this fixture? Or maybe I've got rose tinted glasses on and SA are doing this to everyone and/or England's scrum can't compete with any top tier opponent?

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert in the dark art of scrumming, but here they all are in a single video clip.

If there's clear evidence of cheating, then should be easy to identify by those in the know.

 

[crossref]

Was it 9 PK/Fk awarded to SA and 2 to England?

Angus obv not involved in the grand anti SA conspiracy

 

[Dickie E]

of the 20 scrums shown, AG stood on the non-feed side 13 times. Possibly (but not always) due to proximity of AR.

And his absolute focus on the front rows throughout the life of the scrums

 

[menace]

And his absolute focus on the front rows throughout the life of the scrums

And how many scrums didn't have a FR issue?

 

[BikingBud]

But you better be sure who is at fault. naturally.

It's not a blame issue, nobody is at fault until they don't comply.

The scrum is not over the mark, shuffle back to get over the mark. If the directed team don't move in the directed direction. Peep!

Job jobbed.

 

[BikingBud]

There has been a shift over the last 5 years in the Eng scrum. For instance, we don't pick big locks anymore, we have players that can cover both lock and back row, i.e. Itoje, Laws, Coles. The big weighted units like Launchberry etc are gone. The FR is now much more dynamic, and smaller. Someone like Genge is amazing with ball in hand around the park but I have always thought struggles with the actual art of scrummaging. You need someone like Marler, a big technical scrummager, back in the FR to stop the sheer power dominance. SA are big and powerful. At the top level the only way to combat that is to be big and powerful as well. I have now watched the game. The way Stuart gets crumpled towards the end, that is basically down to sheer size and strength. Same with Mako in the first half.

For SA my starting FR for Eng would be Marler, George, Sinckler. All still good around the park but the penalty count wouldn't be nearly as high. As for the locks, Ribbans and Hill but Hill has to stop giving silly pens away. Itoje just declare himself a 6. Curry at 7, Dombrant at 8 when fit. Simmonds to back up. Billy V didn't achieve anything in open play as he isn't the big powerful presence against SA as he is against other nations.

You then still have to counter the "bomb squad" at 60 mins. The SA FR went from an average height of about 5'8" to 6'2" at that point. So a more powerful fresh FR at 60 mins. Where does that leave the more dynamic players, Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Stuart. Not sure. Is SA the exception where they don't get picked. Not sure that would even work with the way sides train together etc. It is a real tough one.

Three names:

Smith, Wood, Wallace

Size is not everything!

Technique is still king.

 

[didds]

It's not a blame issue, nobody is at fault until they don't comply.

OK - 'll rephrase.
if you are going to card somebody, you'd better be sure you choose the correct player that didn't comply.
Because if you guess the FR players WILL know you've guessed. And their view of your credibility and maybe pertinently what they can get away with may be formed by that.

 

[didds]

I have done the scrum factory course as part of a coaching badge. It tells you nothing about what is going on in the FR. Even how the FR binds up is incorrect. It maybe what they want to coach but it is not what happens on a match day, especially at grassroots.

It will tell you what SHOULD be happening - spines in line, knees under pelvis, elbows UP, shoulders above hips etc.
there's four things to look for, for starters.

what they are doing to NOT be doing those things is largely irrelevant - they are doling them or not. Full stop.
WRT binding that is also fairly clear. is the bind on the shirt or the arm? If its low (eg belly) on the oppo shirt the elbow will show what is happening with that bind .. ditto if the bind is high (chest / under the armpit). Given tyyhe size of some props in the coimmunity gakme it might be possible to get a very LONG bind on an oppos shoirt (eg down near the kidney) - but on the arm is a no-no, and Id suggest an armpit bind is worth a little chat, but it more what happens with the elbow to see if that bind is being used to pull an oppo downwards