Same Old.......

Taffy


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A right pickle today. 3rd team against the second team. It was not likely to be the free flowing game we would all have hoped for. From the first breakdown, when instead of fizzing a tight spin pass into the bread basket of the running number 10, the scrum half sort of lolloped a type of pass about ten yards away from anyone. It was going to be one of those games........

That having been said, I was surprised by the immediate amount of chat and dissent (here we go again I thought). So, ask was at the captain's chat, tell came very quickly and then we had a penalty.......followed by another one and another ten yards.......and eventually a yellow card.

And then the other team started it........and then the previous miscreants started again.....I called the captains over and explained, we had a few more penalties and eventually it got sorted out. But the point I am making is that it immediately wound up the coach of the away team who was looking daggers at me most of the game.........

Any other way of dealing with this or is it just part of the grass roots rubbish matches you will get from time to time.......????????

At the end I thanked the coach for running touch. We muttered under his breath and I said I would be happy to have a word in the bar afterwards. When I did so, he was very complimentary, mentioned that I had missed a few things at the tackle area and a couple of off sides, but acknowledged it was a difficult job. Are all these guys just playing mind games?

I am longing for a regrade to get away from these type of games. The second side were a veterans team really and they were probably used to howling at a referee or having a running commentary on things, but I just find it is distracting........:(
 

Stuartg


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A right pickle today. 3rd team against the second team. It was not likely to be the free flowing game we would all have hoped for. From the first breakdown, when instead of fizzing a tight spin pass into the bread basket of the running number 10, the scrum half sort of lolloped a type of pass about ten yards away from anyone. It was going to be one of those games........

That having been said, I was surprised by the immediate amount of chat and dissent (here we go again I thought). So, ask was at the captain's chat, tell came very quickly and then we had a penalty.......followed by another one and another ten yards.......and eventually a yellow card.

And then the other team started it........and then the previous miscreants started again.....I called the captains over and explained, we had a few more penalties and eventually it got sorted out. But the point I am making is that it immediately wound up the coach of the away team who was looking daggers at me most of the game.........

Any other way of dealing with this or is it just part of the grass roots rubbish matches you will get from time to time.......????????

At the end I thanked the coach for running touch. We muttered under his breath and I said I would be happy to have a word in the bar afterwards. When I did so, he was very complimentary, mentioned that I had missed a few things at the tackle area and a couple of off sides, but acknowledged it was a difficult job. Are all these guys just playing mind games?

I am longing for a regrade to get away from these type of games. The second side were a veterans team really and they were probably used to howling at a referee or having a running commentary on things, but I just find it is distracting........:(

We've all been there and sympathise. There will come a day when one of these sorts of team find they have no referee and they'll wonder why and not realise it was their actions which brought about the early retirement of referees. One thing to try is refering to the core values of the game which include respect. I don't know how old you are and what ambitions you have as a referee - it will colour your response. I'm an old fart who isn't going progress further and I'm prepared to (threaten to) abandon the game with all the consequences that may have. None of us should put up with this level of dissent from any team. Ignore the coach on the touchline - block him out.
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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Keep at it.

The sooner you get promoted the sooner you'll get away. When you do get really weedy games when you're at L10 or wherever they are never quite as frustrating and you can console yourself next week you'll be back at your proper level.

Chin up.
 

Taffy


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We've all been there and sympathise. There will come a day when one of these sorts of team find they have no referee and they'll wonder why and not realise it was their actions which brought about the early retirement of referees. One thing to try is refering to the core values of the game which include respect. I don't know how old you are and what ambitions you have as a referee - it will colour your response. I'm an old fart who isn't going progress further and I'm prepared to (threaten to) abandon the game with all the consequences that may have. None of us should put up with this level of dissent from any team. Ignore the coach on the touchline - block him out.

I'm 50 (just!). I want to go as high as I can which probably realistically is Level 6 with a bit of a push (Level 5 is a probably not possibility but it is always nice to have an aim!)

The matches I referee during the week which are mainly University Teams are quick and you run out of breath often, but the breakdown is pretty much a joy to behold.......the standard of rugby is just SO much higher!

- - - Updated - - -

I'm 50 (just!). I want to go as high as I can which probably realistically is Level 6 with a bit of a push (Level 5 is a probably not possibility but it is always nice to have an aim!)

The matches I referee during the week which are mainly University Teams are quick and you run out of breath often, but the breakdown is pretty much a joy to behold.......the standard of rugby is just SO much higher!

I have refereed Level 9 matches and am currently officially Level 11.
 

Simon Thomas


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I'm 50 (just!). I want to go as high as I can which probably realistically is Level 6 with a bit of a push (Level 5 is a probably not possibility but it is always nice to have an aim!)

The matches I referee during the week which are mainly University Teams are quick and you run out of breath often, but the breakdown is pretty much a joy to behold.......the standard of rugby is just SO much higher!

I have refereed Level 9 matches and am currently officially Level 11.

As a 50 year old level 11 with ambitions to get to Level 6 I suggest you have an urgent discussion with Devon's Head of Grading and the Training Officer. Are you expecting to be promoted up a grade in the mid-year review (which I know Devon did earlier this week) ?

Have you been bleep or yo-yo tested ?

I am afraid that you will not get to Level 5 as that would be selection onto SW Group, after initially Federation selection / testing. Group is the pathway to National Panel.
 
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Shelflife


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You have to learn to blank them out, they are trying to cover up their lack of coaching ability and tactical knowledge by blaming the ref and demonstrating their extraordinary lack of basic grasp of the laws of the game. The louder they shout is never to be taken that you might have missed anything merely that they are vocalising their complete inability to galvanise their team.
 

Taffy


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As a 50 year old level 11 with ambitions to get to Level 6 I suggest you have an urgent discussion with Devon's Head of Grading and the Training Officer. Are you expecting to be promoted up a grade in the mid-year review (which I know Devon did earlier this week) ?

Have you been bleep or yo-yo tested ?

I am afraid that you will not get to Level 5 as that would be selection onto SW Group, after initially Federation selection / testing. Group is the pathway to National Panel.

Ah well, perhaps an old git might make history.............

Love being told things aren't possible...........I was an AR at Twickenham earlier on in the year and didn't EVER think that might transpire!

I have asked about a regrade but told it was 99% certain I would not get one............I don't want to nag as that would be counter productive, but I am very much a "have boots will travel" ref and we oldies need to be motivated as well as the new bright young things......
 

Taffy


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Ah well, perhaps an old git might make history.............

Love being told things aren't possible...........I was an AR at Twickenham earlier on in the year and didn't EVER think that might transpire!

I have asked about a regrade but told it was 99% certain I would not get one............I don't want to nag as that would be counter productive, but I am very much a "have boots will travel" ref and we oldies need to be motivated as well as the new bright young things......

No Simon, not been bleeped or yo yo tested............
 

menace


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They won't come out and say they're prejudiced against age because they're not allowed, but the reality is the higher the age the lower the ROI! Get used to it. I could bet you that if you had 2 equal referees in every way, then the opportunities will go to the younger one.

('They' being the unions. Their priority is the young ones. They will get the opportunities over the older more reliable ones. The oldies are there just to make up the numbers.).

Although I sound bitter on it, I'm not, as I know the future of the game relies on the younger ones coming through. The younglings of today need more 'hugs and cuddles' to feel they're valued and so are pampered just that little bit more to hang about.
 

Browner

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A right pickle today. 3rd team against the second team. It was not likely to be the free flowing game we would all have hoped for. From the first breakdown, when instead of fizzing a tight spin pass into the bread basket of the running number 10, the scrum half sort of lolloped a type of pass about ten yards away from anyone. It was going to be one of those games........

That having been said, I was surprised by the immediate amount of chat and dissent (here we go again I thought). So, ask was at the captain's chat, tell came very quickly and then we had a penalty.......followed by another one and another ten yards.......and eventually a yellow card.

And then the other team started it........and then the previous miscreants started again.....I called the captains over and explained, we had a few more penalties and eventually it got sorted out. But the point I am making is that it immediately wound up the coach of the away team who was looking daggers at me most of the game.........

Any other way of dealing with this or is it just part of the grass roots rubbish matches you will get from time to time.......????????

At the end I thanked the coach for running touch. We muttered under his breath and I said I would be happy to have a word in the bar afterwards. When I did so, he was very complimentary, mentioned that I had missed a few things at the tackle area and a couple of off sides, but acknowledged it was a difficult job. Are all these guys just playing mind games?

I am longing for a regrade to get away from these type of games. The second side were a veterans team really and they were probably used to howling at a referee or having a running commentary on things, but I just find it is distracting........:(

Taffy, i think you were too lenient, given you said it started quickly

So,
A ( at PMB)
T
P. capt...one of us is going to stop your players dissent, but you get the 1st chance, is that clear?,
this is a team warning please now please tell your players,.........................OK capt, do your players understand the team warning in place? yes sir.... Good let's play.
P, capt, it looks like #9 didn't listen to you ...YC ...if you don't get control, I am forced to escalate and RC is 'one' of my options IS THAT clear enough ?

P+10
YC

IME players will soon amend their behaviour IF they see a need to..... Involve the captain very early, and make it very clear .
 
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Taffy


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They won't come out and say they're prejudiced against age because they're not allowed, but the reality is the higher the age the lower the ROI! Get used to it. I could bet you that if you had 2 equal referees in every way, then the opportunities will go to the younger one.

('They' being the unions. Their priority is the young ones. They will get the opportunities over the older more reliable ones. The oldies are there just to make up the numbers.).

Although I sound bitter on it, I'm not, as I know the future of the game relies on the younger ones coming through. The younglings of today need more 'hugs and cuddles' to feel they're valued and so are pampered just that little bit more to hang about.


I agree with you menace, totally understand the logic behind backing the younger refs and fast tracking them, but yes, the older ones need just as much encouragement in their game as well! I know it's difficult to keep everyone happy, all of the time and it doesn't seem logical or right that refs generally get graded up one grade every year sort of automatically until level 8. IMHO there should be a buddy system operating all the time so that even old gits like me are encouraged and felt valued.
 

Taffy


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Browner, you're right of course. I think it threw me a bit as the last few matches I have had were relatively straightforward in this area. I guess part of it is knowing whether it is ok to let a shout of "knock on ref" go by you or pull someone up and probably the answer is not always the same (however much I would like it to be). Then there was the guy bawling at me saying he was being held back at the scrum (he was actually but it was of course the other side of me)..............

The game would be fine if it wasn't for the people........
 

winchesterref


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Browner, do you not feel that is a bit lenient? That is 5 steps for managing dissent. Would you say 5 opportunities to stop the back chat for a team before YC is too many? Bearing in mind that could be per side.
 

Simon Thomas


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I agree with you menace, totally understand the logic behind backing the younger refs and fast tracking them, but yes, the older ones need just as much encouragement in their game as well! I know it's difficult to keep everyone happy, all of the time and it doesn't seem logical or right that refs generally get graded up one grade every year sort of automatically until level 8. IMHO there should be a buddy system operating all the time so that even old gits like me are encouraged and felt valued.

Not all young refs are "so called fast tracked" and what exactly do you mean by fast-tracked ? What is you definition of young ?
Refs are not generally upgraded year by year up to L8 in my (or my Society's L9, 10 & 11s) experience and I am Chair of both Society and Federation Grading Committees, and involved in nomination of L5s to Group, so see the whoe process end to end up to Panel.

If you want a buddy system then define it, propose it to your Society Committee, set it up and run it.

All referees in our Society are valued and encouraged, and the bulk of matches are at L9-12 - I appoint equally, and for new season 1 refs with bias, all of our Match Observers/Coaches.

Referees with identified high potential in management, game awareness, law knowledge, and fitness, along with proven commitment and reliability are indeed flagged for advancement and in some cases make rapid progress. It is the same for players and coaches in rugby, and indeed many other sports. In some cases we have 40+ yrs referees who start and have high potential, and they are given every assistance to progress, but knowing they are unlikely to get further than L8 and possibly 7 or even 6 in exceptional circumstances.

The progression up the grades is not a linear one but exponential across all aspects listed above.
 

Browner

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Browner, do you not feel that is a bit lenient? That is 5 steps for managing dissent. Would you say 5 opportunities to stop the back chat for a team before YC is too many? Bearing in mind that could be per side.

Hi jonesp
I said ( in green) , A, T ,P&TW , YC

I make that x3 before the YC , how did you read 5?
 

Browner

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Browner, you're right of course. I think it threw me a bit as the last few matches I have had were relatively straightforward in this area. I guess part of it is knowing whether it is ok to let a shout of "knock on ref" go by you or pull someone up and probably the answer is not always the same (however much I would like it to be). Then there was the guy bawling at me saying he was being held back at the scrum (he was actually but it was of course the other side of me)..............

The game would be fine if it wasn't for the people........

No, Taffy, can't agree there....it is all about the people and their competitiveness.

Appeals like knock-on is kinda natural and reactionary, and if non demanding its mainly ignored, albeit an irritation. Generally in matches once players gain confidence in my ability they mostly desist.

Bawling needs a firm admonishment, failure to do so signals weakness and is infectious , it will undermine all that you set out to do. Stamp it out.
 

OB..


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Not all young refs are "so called fast tracked" and what exactly do you mean by fast-tracked ? What is you definition of young ?
Refs are not generally upgraded year by year up to L8 in my (or my Society's L9, 10 & 11s) experience and I am Chair of both Society and Federation Grading Committees, and involved in nomination of L5s to Group, so see the whoe process end to end up to Panel.

If you want a buddy system then define it, propose it to your Society Committee, set it up and run it.

All referees in our Society are valued and encouraged, and the bulk of matches are at L9-12 - I appoint equally, and for new season 1 refs with bias, all of our Match Observers/Coaches.

Referees with identified high potential in management, game awareness, law knowledge, and fitness, along with proven commitment and reliability are indeed flagged for advancement and in some cases make rapid progress. It is the same for players and coaches in rugby, and indeed many other sports. In some cases we have 40+ yrs referees who start and have high potential, and they are given every assistance to progress, but knowing they are unlikely to get further than L8 and possibly 7 or even 6 in exceptional circumstances.

The progression up the grades is not a linear one but exponential across all aspects listed above.
From my view on the sidelines of the grading procedures, I agree entirely with all that.

I have mentioned before that in changing from A, B, C grades we lost a useful way point. Progressing from C1 to B3 meant taking an extra exam and agreeing to a minimal level of commitment. Many referees decided that they were very comfortable at C1, since they would get the occasional B3 game.

A couple of years ago I analysed apointments to see what games referees were getting. Up to Level 9 (= old C1?) they were mainly gettiong at-grade appointments with a reasonable number one up. Above that, most were getting at-grade with, on the whole, only those expected to go further getting the higher level games. This correlated strongly with the number of teams we had at the higher levels. I seem to remember one year we only had one level 6 team in Gloucestershire, which made life tough for our handful of Level 6 refs, and had a knock-on effect lower down.
 

Browner

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Taffy, we're of similar age, with similar refereeing ambitions.

I try to remember this when getting a lower level fixture....

If you use golf courses as an analogy, some are easier, some are difficult, the conditions are also variable, as is your opponent ..... each time you turn up you have to adapt your game to suit what you are faced with. Sometimes you can play the same hole ( read Team) & it plays completely differently and brings a new set of challenges. But in all cases you have to react to what you are presented with otherwise the course beats you!

I see Lower Level rugby like this, im challenging myself to ' manage the course' ( read - players ) to the best of my ability , whilst ensuring fair application of law. If I achieve that, then its satisfying to me, even if the skill levels of the combatants are lower.

I do not subscribe to any other view than assessors set out to do their damned best at each match, and to be fair in their role.

Sure they all have different opinions, but in the main they are not much different to the referees , honest enthusiastic game loving volunteers trying to do their best. Referees should give them as much respect as we expect.

Assessor bashers are < = > Referee bashers.

For me Taffy, you'll be a lot more content if you adopt this mindset, irrespective of level.

I often see L6 referees doing u14 matches .... how do they ever cope with the different skill/standards??!!!??
 

Simon Thomas


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Simon - what does this sentence mean? As a mathematician you've lost me.

This is a very general view and quick - as I have a nice Malbec opened and breathing.

In all cases I assume full law knowledge, and basic empathy for what the players are doing.

The step from 9 to 8 is not great for a referee with decent management skills, and general fitness.

The one from 8 to 7 is a big one in management (communication and control) and the game starts getting quicker with fewer errors and much longer cycles of play.

From 7 to 6 nothing in the matches happens by mistake, the management challenge is much higher, spotting trends, escalating and getting early match compliance are crucial. Speed of play and physicality goes up yet again, so the referee must be physically very fit, and mentally attuned at all times with an all round awareness of everything happening on the pitch, and increasing levels of preventative management.

At L5 match speed is up again by a significant amount, major challenges at scrum and breakdown are encountered, consistency is essential, 100% accuracy required, and adaptability to tactical changes in the match. More preventative management, quick judgement and decisions, plus very good fitness levels.

The step up in management, skill and fitness is not simple step each time but increasing at each level, which reflects the standard of players and the games overall.
 
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