scenario from a recent Level 8 match

[ex-lucy]

you are the ref, what would you do?

scrum collapses
red 3 is injured in 45th minute and is replaced by red 17
red 17 is NOT the designated FR replacement but was, 2 years ago, a county U17 prop.
red 17 props ok for a few scrums
after 3 scrums, in about 55th minute, red 17 says he cannot continue in FR - not having propped for 2 years.
red 12 (the designated FR replacement) goes to hooker.
red 2 goes to prop.
still contested scrums at this stage.
in 65th minute red 2 (playing thp) has his ribs injured and cannot continue as prop.
so we go to uncontested scrums
But red 2 continues to play as all 3 red replacements used now so doesnt want to go off and reduce his team to 14 players.

 

[Drift]

Sorry, if you cannot continue to prop because of a rib injury you are going to be leaving the field.
I also see 2 ways of the injured player leaving the pitch:
1. Getting dragged by the coach.
2. Me reaching into my pocket.

 

[didds]

I reckon in the interests of player safety, you go uncontested for scrummages.

WRT general play (in senior rugby), do you have the "right" as a ref to insist an injured player leaves the FoP? (I suppsoe you cvould "invent" YC to get rid of him for the last 10 minutes, to protect him from himself!)

didds

 

[ianh5979]

In a game i was reffereeing he would be off and we would be uncontested if they didnt have another front row

 

[Drift]

As far as I understand the "competiton rule" that the OP is hinting at the team with the injuries is requesting uncontested so therefore they need to lose a play from the pitch. That is how it is down here at least.

 

[OB..]

WRT general play (in senior rugby), do you have the "right" as a ref to insist an injured player leaves the FoP?

[LAWS]Law 3.9
If the referee decides - with or without the advice of a doctor or other medically qualified person - that a player is so injured that the player should stop playing, the referee may order that player to leave the playing area. The referee may also order a player to leave the field to be medically examined.[/LAWS]

 

[didds]

thanks OB. presumably refusal is dissent so a YC for starters - which gets him off the pitch for starters.

cheers

didds

 

[crossref]

how can you order 2 off the pitch without also ordering 17 off the pitch?
- they have both propped for few scrums, then declared themselves unable to prop, but able to stay on the pitch.
- must be either neither of them or both of them?

 

[crossref]

I think to solve this scenario you have to know whether the 'man-off' rule applies to this particular game.

 

[ex-lucy]

it's a L8 league match in England ....

 

[Jabba]

If red 2 cannot continue to scrummage, he leaves the field, his team is reduced to 14 (regardless of unused other replacements ie - not front row) and uncontested scrummages for the remainder of the game. Result at 80 mins stands.

 

[Simon Thomas]

RFU L8 League match - off #2 goes under uncontested / man off regulation

Red 17 was not a nominated FR replacement and so should not have been allowed to prop.

 

[Phil E]

RFU L8 League match - off #2 goes under uncontested / man off regulation

Red 17 was not a nominated FR replacement and so should not have been allowed to prop.

100% spot on.

Red 17 wasn't a designated FR and probably wasn't at the FR brief. He can't prop. If you let him and he causes a collapse that injures someone, you could be held responsible for allowing it.

Bring in the designated FR replacement (Red 2).

When Red 2 can't prop and there is no other designated FR replacement, we are uncontested and the team that caused the uncontested (Red) are down to 14.

Note time and score when uncontested started as you will need to write this on the league score card.

 

[didds]

Red 17 wasn't a designated FR and probably wasn't at the FR brief. He can't prop. If you let him and he causes a collapse that injures someone, you could be held responsible for allowing it.

What checks are there on the designated FR and starting FR by the ref that they can prop - as opposed to a non designated FR that "appears"?

If the designated FRs have all been used and another player turns round and says "I am ST&E" are you saying that that's it - you can't give him the same brief with time off to ensure that 30 blokes get the game they want tio play? Then have a word with the skipper etc after tha game to suggest they make sure ALL potential FR replacements are marked, whatever their position on the pitch!


didds

 

[didds]

Red 17 wasn't a designated FR and probably wasn't at the FR brief. He can't prop. If you let him and he causes a collapse that injures someone, you could be held responsible for allowing it.

What checks are there on the designated FR and starting FR by the ref that they can prop - as opposed to a non designated FR that "appears"?

If the designated FRs have all been used and another player turns round and says "I am ST&E" are you saying that that's it - you can't give him the same brief with time off to ensure that 30 blokes get the game they want tio play? Then have a word with the skipper etc after tha game to suggest they make sure ALL potential FR replacements are marked, whatever their position on the pitch!

WRT "man off" - if theer are half a dozen designated FRs on the card does man off not apply until all such players have been used ?

didds

 

[Simon Thomas]

Didds - at all levels referee should ask at FR briefing "are you all trained and experienced FR players ? Are all FR replacements here ?"

At a L8 league match the FR repaclement is marked on the match card and RFU Regs are very clear on the steps to take.

At other mathces depending on any applicable regs, of course take time to make sure a player offering to go FR is ST&E, and give brief again.

 

[Phil E]

This was a league game.
FR have to be marked on the league card. Not marked? Then you are not playing in that position.
It is not the referee's responsibilty to check their training and experience, he just goes by what is marked on the card.

I don't make the league rules, I just enforce them. If I bent them and the other team complained I would get in trouble.

Man off only applies when a FR goes off and can't be replaced. (first or subsequent time of asking).

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I count the FRs on the card and if there are same number at the brief that's it as far as I'm concerned.

If they mark 6 or 7 FR STEs and they're at the brief then fine. If they mark 4 then after two injuries it's man off and UC scrums. Where's that logic tree?

The main issue for me this year is to remember there can be 5 replacements but still only needs to be 4 STEs as a minimum.

 

[ex-lucy]

Phil
"Red 17 wasn't a designated FR and probably wasn't at the FR brief. He can't prop. If you let him and he causes a collapse that injures someone, you could be held responsible for allowing it.

Bring in the designated FR replacement (Red 2).

When Red 2 can't prop and there is no other designated FR replacement, we are uncontested and the team that caused the uncontested (Red) are down to 14.

Note time and score when uncontested started as you will need to write this on the league score card. "

good stuff, this is what i would have done ....
it didnt happen like this, i'm afraid.
The result has now gone to arbitration.
I think the result will stand.
i think (and hope) the referee will learn from his mistake(s)
what i am worried about though, more than anything, is that the Group assessor (!) agreed with the referee's decisions !!

how can we (i use the term losely) hope to get better as referees when assessors (neh, Group assessors) F**K up too ?
/rant off

p.s. i was on a neighbouring pitch ... scoring a try ... my first in 8 long barren years

 

[OB..]

how can we (i use the term losely) hope to get better as referees when assessors (neh, Group assessors) F**K up too ?

What right have we to expect ANYBODY in the game to be perfect?