Scotland V Ireland at 5 mins

breako


Referees in Ireland
Joined
Sep 11, 2006
Messages
310
Post Likes
2
At 5mins, Ireland V Scotland, you'll see on this youtube link:

https://youtu.be/Z1I4PWKjjzs?t=971

if you jump into 16:14 Bundee Aki is penalised for hands in ruck. But he enters thru and since he is at the ball can he not just pick up, since he is the last man?


Thanks
 

ChrisR

Player or Coach
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
3,229
Post Likes
354
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Bad call. No true ruck formed, only TWOL, unless you consider incidental contact with Blue.
 

Christy


Referees in Ireland
Joined
May 25, 2016
Messages
527
Post Likes
60
Current Referee grade:
Level 1
I was surprised he got away with us much as he did , all of match .
For me he has gone off his feet past the ball . His right hand supports his weight = off your feet & very material .
And at that point he took up space that wasnt his & it stopped scotish player the freedom that he now has , to pick up ball .
Penalty all day long ..
 

breako


Referees in Ireland
Joined
Sep 11, 2006
Messages
310
Post Likes
2
Bad call. No true ruck formed, only TWOL, unless you consider incidental contact with Blue.

Even if it was a ruck, what's wrong with what Aki did? He is the last man so surely can pick up the ball and leave the so called ruck?
 

breako


Referees in Ireland
Joined
Sep 11, 2006
Messages
310
Post Likes
2
I agree with the right hand. But if poite called hands in ruck. That's not the right call.
 

menace


Referees in Australia
Joined
Nov 20, 2009
Messages
3,591
Post Likes
567
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Even if it was a ruck, what's wrong with what Aki did? He is the last man so surely can pick up the ball and leave the so called ruck?

IMO..the first player trying to clean out Aki forms the ruck. Aki is now part of the ruck. When the ruck crumbles and Aki is only one standing the ball still technically has not left the ruck. Therefore Aki cant just step through and pick up.the ball (which is still in the ruck). IMO all Aki had to do was step past the ball. If he did that the ball is now out of the ruck.
So for me the ball hasn't left the ruck and that's why Aki cant pick it up. That's the technical view.
It looks ok I know and other than the momentary off feet I wouldnt have opposed if Poite let it play on either.
Probably a 50/50 that could have let go.
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
10,840
Post Likes
1,228
well this is what happoens when we get to a situation where a pile of bodies on the floor, with nobody in contcat over the ball is still a ruck.

its hardly surprising that in the heat of battle people mistake the ball on the floor with nobody over it as not a ruck situation.

maybe if the people ending up on the floor were penalsied for being off their feet this rubbish would just go away?

didds
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
19,817
Post Likes
2,275
well this is what happoens when we get to a situation where a pile of bodies on the floor, with nobody in contcat over the ball is still a ruck.

s

Isnt this the "dead ruck" concept that was introduced in the pre season guidelines six months ago, and then immediately forgotten all about

The guideline said that if, in that situation, the ball is clearly exposed then the ruck is over.

So it's ok to pick it up .

We talked about it here for a while, it amounted to a new law, a new way a ruck could end

After about three weeks, though , everyone forgot all about it, thank goodness. New Laws should be in the Law Book, with highlights
 
Last edited:

Ian_Cook


Referees in New Zealand
Staff member
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
13,645
Post Likes
1,712
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
IMO..the first player trying to clean out Aki forms the ruck. Aki is now part of the ruck. .

This is the nub. As soon as he puts a hand on the ball, its hands in the ruck.

Correct call IMO
 

menace


Referees in Australia
Joined
Nov 20, 2009
Messages
3,591
Post Likes
567
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Isnt this the "dead ruck" concept that was introduced in the pre season guidelines six months ago, and then immediately forgotten all about

The guideline said that if, in that situation, the ball is clearly exposed then the ruck is over.

So it's ok to pick it up .

We talked about it here for a while, it amounted to a new law, a new way a ruck could end

After about three weeks, though , everyone forgot all about it, thank goodness. New Laws should be in the Law Book, with highlights

We have something sort of similar in our Game Management Guidelines.
"Ball out and collapsed ruck
• The ball is only out of a ruck (or scrum) when it is totally exposed or it is clear of bodies.
• If the ball is being dug out (after being won) or is under the feet of players at the back of the ruck, the
scrum-half cannot be touched until the ball is clearly out of the ruck. The benefit of any doubt must
go to the scrum-half.
Players cannot step through or over the middle of a collapsed ruck before the ball is cleared or the ball
is completely clear of bodies. These players are unbound and in front of the last feet and are therefore
offside.

• Zero tolerance on defending players at the ruck who target the scrum-half before they have the ball,
even if the ball is out of the ruck. Any onside player must play the ball and not the player."

So in the situation being discussed - what you rule will come down to your interpretation of the ruck being formed and then the ball being clear of bodies.
 

Taff


Referees in Wales
Joined
Aug 23, 2009
Messages
6,939
Post Likes
378
Even if it was a ruck, what's wrong with what Aki did? He is the last man so surely can pick up the ball and leave the so called ruck?
Just a quick thought, but perhaps he needs to reverse the order ie

  1. Leave ruck and then
  2. Pick up the ball.
 

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
15,527
Post Likes
1,811
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Hands on the floor before he picks up the ball.
Once he puts his hands on the floor he's out of the game and needs to get out of there.
 

Arabcheif

Player or Coach
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Messages
668
Post Likes
70
Current Referee grade:
Level 1
For me (I'm Scotsman so blue tinted specs on here lol), I think the the 3 Scottish players involved had driven over and went off there feet, so no longer involved in the ruck. Nothing wrong with what the Irish lad did. Stepped Over through the middle, ball was clear of any bodies. He picked it up. I get the right hand on the ground so yeah I can see why that might've been pinged but I don't think that was the call.

In that match there were soo many late charges on kickers. I think 1 lead indirectly to an Irish try. Wasn't impressed with the standard of ref in that match.
 

Arabcheif

Player or Coach
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Messages
668
Post Likes
70
Current Referee grade:
Level 1
Hands on the floor before he picks up the ball.
Once he puts his hands on the floor he's out of the game and needs to get out of there.

To be fair, his hand was on the ground for about half a second. He was supporting his own wait as he picked up the ball and there was no other player attempting to compete for the ball. I'm sure sure there would be any complaints for a play on.
 

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
15,527
Post Likes
1,811
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
To be fair, his hand was on the ground for about half a second. He was supporting his own wait as he picked up the ball and there was no other player attempting to compete for the ball. I'm sure sure there would be any complaints for a play on.

Both hands on the floor either side of the ball at one point.
Had he not put his hands on the floor he would have fell on his face and killed the ball.
This gave him an advantage in picking up the ball.

It's something referees at all levels were told to look out for at the start of the season.
 

Arabcheif

Player or Coach
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Messages
668
Post Likes
70
Current Referee grade:
Level 1
Phil E - I see what you're saying and it would've been enough for just 1 hand being down. I have to disagree that both hands were on the ground though. His left hand was curled round the ball. I think the call was for hands in the ruck?? This for me was wrong, but admittedly he didn't support his weight throughout the process. But that being said he was when he picked up the ball, but I still may have pinged for that hand, unfortunate and maybe a bit nit picking.
 

ChrisR

Player or Coach
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
3,229
Post Likes
354
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
I find it interesting that some would PK Green for a momentary hands on the floor when a Blue player in support of the BC goes to ground (flat on the deck) beyond the ball and the other Blue tries to clear out well to the side of the ball and then totally goes to the deck.

This never is a ruck. The momentary contact between Green and Blue is well away from the ball. How could Green be PKd for this (and a remarkable effort to stay on his feet) after the previous sequence of "rucks" that are simply a massive pile of bodies on the ground.
 

menace


Referees in Australia
Joined
Nov 20, 2009
Messages
3,591
Post Likes
567
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
I am a little surprised you don't deem this a ruck?
Ok we cant see the ball but frame before when blue make contact has Aki lining up and bending over to pilfer the ball.
But ok...it's a judgment call.
Screenshot_2019-02-15-08-08-05.jpg
I say ruck and would therefore play it out as that phase.
I agree it soon gets ugly and decisions becomes even more subjective when the ball appears to be in the clear. I could have accepted play on as nothing was really "clear and obvious"
 

Jz558


ELRA/Club Referee
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Messages
320
Post Likes
89
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
I'm in agreement with ChrisR on this, no ruck was formed and it looks more like a TWOL. Conan is the tackler, Aki is the tackle assist (other player) and both release the tackled player when he goes to ground. After the tackle is complete no Irish player engages with a Scottish player. The freeze frame above only seems to show a tackle in progress to me.

Aki does then have both hands on the ground to prevent himself falling forward and gains an advantage from that so I can see why he was penalised.
 

nhughes

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2018
Messages
47
Post Likes
7
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
If memory serves Poite said something like '2nd man in' implying he was bound and thetefore part of the ruck, if he had kicked the ball he would have been ok or stood over it to allow an Irish player(not bound or off his feet) to play it with his hands. Marginal call probably text boob correct buy it's a clear try scoring opportunity so the defence have to get it right.
 
Top