Scrap in midfield

[ex-lucy]

2 red players and 1 blue player are having a scrap in midfield.

maul/ ruck carrying on 20 yards away

what do you do?

what options do you have ?

how do you restart?

 

[ex-lucy]

i said blow and stop
admonish/ card as you see fit
penalise defending team with a penalty

this was in a meeting so other refs said
play on

restart with a scrum

etc

jeez !!

 

[TheBFG]

why PK the defending side:chin:

agree with the cards etc, but unless you are sure that the PK should be against the defending side i'd go with a scrum to the side in possesion at time of stoppage? (at the point of the maul)

 

[Taff]

I asked a very similar question last year after a 2 boy brawl in which I was a TJ. Just to complicate matters one of the brawlers was my own boy. In fairness to him according to several spectators, he did take about 4 punches before realising he was on his own and started retaliating.

Neither the ref nor either of the TJs saw what sparked it all off - it was in a different half of the pitch to where the play was, and it was a very bad tempered game so we were all watching the maul. The ref blew up (he was playing for the U15s at the time, so I assume safety is even more important when kids are involved) and awarded a scrum to the side in possession but back where the brawl was. Personally I would have

• awarded a scrum to the the side in possession where play was stopped or
• if you couldn't decide who had possession, given it to the attacking team where play was stopped

 

[crossref]

reffing kids I would normally blow if I saw a fight - not if one team were on point of scoring a try or something, but certainly if ball was in a maul.

i wouldn't have any ARs so no one to advise what happened so I would hesitate to penalise any one fighter.

In some circs I might consider YC them both (..for instance if the match was getting edgy and I had told the capts only three mins ago that everyone needed to calm down)

resume with scrum where ball was. Team in possession. (or if neither, attacking team)

 

[Adam]

An international AR said that after a scrap, the one thing you DON'T do is start with a scrum. This is because it could create a flashpoint as 16 recently angry forwards will be competing for the ball. You almost make trouble for yourself here.

By awarding a PK either way (especially to defending team), means that the teams are separated for a lot longer whilst the ball is no doubt kicked to touch. This gives more time for the red mist to leave.

 

[Phil E]

...... so I assume safety is even more important when kids are involved)

Safety is ALWAYS the most important thing, no matter what the age group.

SAFETY
ENJOYMENT (or Equity)
LEARNING (or Law)

Always in that order, always with Safety at the top.

As a Referee Trainer, we drum this into candidates over and over again.

Safety, Safety, Safety.


PS: if you don't know who is to blame, scrum to team in possession, where play stopped. 20.4(d)

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Assuming a full blown scrap and not a pushing/holding contest then from 20yds I would blow and halt play then sanction as I saw fit - take as much time as you can to bollock/card etc. I would try not to re-start with a scrum certainly after the forwards have been scrapping as you are just making a rod for your own back.

A well thought out reason for a PK gives an extra half a minute to settle things down (assuming a KtT)

 

[crossref]

I would try not to re-start with a scrum certainly after the forwards have been scrapping as you are just making a rod for your own back.

A well thought out reason for a PK gives an extra half a minute to settle things down (assuming a KtT)

this does sound like good advice.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

this does sound like good advice.

Yes it does doesn't it? No will believe I didn't read AJCarter's post first but I didn't - honest!!:biggrin:

 

[Taff]

Safety is ALWAYS the most important thing, no matter what the age group. .... PS: if you don't know who is to blame, scrum to team in possession, where play stopped. 20.4(d)

Ok, can't argue with that but my point was that would the "safety" bar be higher for 2 fit 15yr olds as opposed to 2 not so fit Vets who were in no real danger of hurting each other?

It's not something I've had to deal with yet, but it often crosses my mind what I would do when it happens (it's only a matter of time before it does) so would I be in order to ask for a short "water break" before coming back for a scrum - just to let the red mist fade a bit. :chin:

I'm pretty clear in my own mind that I would award a scrum, especially if you couldn't see what had happened at the brawl.

 

[Adam]

Yes it does doesn't it? No will believe I didn't read AJCarter's post first but I didn't - honest!!:biggrin:

In fairness we probably both heard it from the same source! I can't actually remember whether it was RG or SH who gave me this advice last Wednesday, but it is good advice nonetheless!

 

[Adam]

I'm pretty clear in my own mind that I would award a scrum, especially if you couldn't see what had happened at the brawl.

As both LLP and I have argued, that's the last thing you want to do when forwards have been scrapping, give them another opportunity to have a go at each other in another pressurised situation.

 

[Phil E]

as opposed to 2 not so fit Vets who were in no real danger of hurting each other? .

If there is no danger of them hurting each other, there is no safety issue

Yes I agree with your thinking. :wink:

I also agree with the others, if it was 2 props having a slugfest, try to avoid a scrum until they have calmed down.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I think it has been passed down through Yorkshire but stems from a (probably embellished over the years) Brian Campsall episode where he "talked" to both Captains whilst the teams were parted for about two minutes with lots of finger wagging whilst they actually talked about bugger all other than the weather, the news etc then restarted with a penalty.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

Why not start with a scrum to team in possession?
I would blow, stop Play issue sanctions as appropriate then restart with a scrum.
No way would i guess what has happenned.

 

[TheBFG]

I also agree with the others, if it was 2 props having a slugfest, try to avoid a scrum until they have calmed down.

But if it's two props slugging it out, that easy, "see ya!":noyc: they can then have 10 mins to calm down.:wink:

Then if you have to give a PK, give it to the defending side, in that way YOU don't have a direct effect on the score, last thing you want is to give a PK to the "wrong side" they kick 3 pts and win the game:wait:

 

[SimonSmith]

Blow it up.

If they keep swinging after the whistle, then we will be restarting with a PK. And it will be against the person I judge to be most egregious after the whistle.

 

[The Fat]

But if it's two props slugging it out, that easy, "see ya!":noyc: they can then have 10 mins to calm down.:wink:

Then if you have to give a PK, give it to the defending side, in that way YOU don't have a direct effect on the score, last thing you want is to give a PK to the "wrong side" they kick 3 pts and win the game:wait:

Why give the PK to the defending side if you don't know what started the stink just so you don't restart with a scrum? It may have been a defending side player, unbeknownst to you, who started the whole thing and therefore you would be rewarding him.

1. Blow & stop play. Blow to stop the three players involved in the stink. Separate teams.
2. Admonish and if more than just jumper pulling eg; fists flying, then issue cards accordingly
3. If you don't know who was the instigator, talk to both captains and explain that you can't penalise what you don't see and that you will restart with a scrum back where the maul was when play was stopped with the team in possession to throw in. Also warn captains that any shenanigans in the ensuing scrum with be dealt with.

 

[Taff]

Why give the PK to the defending side if you don't know what started the stink just so you don't restart with a scrum? It may have been a defending side player, unbeknownst to you, who started the whole thing and therefore you would be rewarding him.

I think the logic goes like this:

• You want to avoid a scrum to keep both sides apart to calm down a bit
• By awarding a PK to the defending side (ie the side in whose half play was) the chances are they're not going to score from it.

Personally I still like the "compulsory" 1 minute water break to take things off the boil. I'll try it one day.